Masculinity vs. “Misogylinity”: what Asian Americans can learn from #UCSB shooting | #YesAllWomen

May 28, 2014
The wreckage of Elliot Rodger's black BMW sedan after his deadly shooting rampage Friday evening. (Photo credit: Jae C. Hong / AP)
The wreckage of Elliot Rodger’s black BMW coupe after his deadly shooting rampage Friday evening. (Photo credit: Jae C. Hong / AP)

On Friday evening in the residential neighbourhood of Isla Vista in Santa Barbara, California, 22-year-old Elliot Rodger stabbed his three young Asian American housemates – George Chen, 19 , Weihan “David” Wang, 20, and Chen Yuan “James” Hong, 20 – to death while they slept. Rodger then drove his luxury BMW coupe to the Alpha Phi sorority where he opened fire with two legally purchased handguns on three female passersby; two – Katherine Cooper, 22 and Veronica Weiss, 19 – were killed, while a third is recovering in hospital. Rodger proceeded to the nearby I.V. Deli Mart and fired randomly into the store, killing Christopher Michael-Martinez, 20. He then drove through the streets of Isla Vista, shooting randomly at pedestrians and striking two cyclists with his car; by the end of the night, he had wounded 13. A brief firefight ensued between him and sheriff deputies, which ended when Rodger crashed his car into another vehicle. Rodger was found dead in the drivers’ seat of an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head.

By Saturday, several YouTube videos created by Rodger – including one uploaded just hours before the attack that appeared to offer a motive for the deadly shooting – were discovered, along with a 140-page autobiography-turned-hate-fueled-manifesto. These items, along with Rodger’s frequent posts on BodyBuilding.com and PUAHate.com forum boards paint a disturbing – and disturbingly detailed – portrait of a narcissistic, mentally disturbed, lonely, woman-hating man-child so deeply twisted by American racism, classism, and sexism that he found a way to rationalize mass murder. Sparked by an abundance of macabre primary source material, over two hundred thousand news articles and think-pieces have now been written about Rodger (according to Google’s latest count) and the feminist hashtag #YesAllWomen – initiated in response to Rodger’s documented misogynistic motives – remains one of the top 5 trending topics on Twitter.

I have over the last four days stayed silent on the UCSB shooting as I tried to parse my own thoughts on Friday’s violent attack. I watched some of the YouTube videos and read Rodger’s manifesto.

In the end, I couldn’t shake the same chilling reaction I felt when I first read about Friday night’s violence: I had seen Elliot Rodger’s brand of radical hatred before. I had seen it within the comments section of my own site for a decade. I had seen it from members of my own community.

George  Chen was a Canadian from Ottawa -- a "gentle soul" who graduated from Leland High in San Jose, California. He was at UCSB studying computer science. He was 19. (Photo credit: NY Daily News)
George Chen was a Canadian from Ottawa — a “gentle soul” who graduated from Leland High in San Jose, California. He was at UCSB studying computer science. He was 19. (Photo credit: NY Daily News)

A Toxic Concoction of Racism, Classism and Sexism

Elliot Rodger had internalized a toxic concoction of America’s white supremacy, its rape culture, and its entitlement complex. To read his manifesto is to discover that Rodger’s underlying disease was a pathological yearning for social acceptance; branching out of this central obsession, however, were ideas warped by racism, classism and sexism. Rodger wanted nothing more than to be “cool”, a word he defined as synonymous with wealth, Whiteness, and straight masculinity. Rodger’s manifesto documents a life in pursuit of this twisted ideal, and a radicalized hatred for every internal and external deviation from it.

Shooter Elliot Rodger in an undated photo.
Shooter Elliot Rodger in an undated photo.

Elliot Rodger enjoyed the economic privilege that came with being born into an upper-class family. He despised all indicators of poverty, routinely calling people he disliked “low-class scum” (a descriptor he also used for other people of colour). This only fueled his rage that he was denied the social acceptance he believed others with less wealth enjoyed. Yet, Rodger’s family routinely encountered financial trouble which periodically limited access to the luxuries Rodger felt he was entitled to; consequently he reveled in these moments – flying first class, attending movie premieres, eating at posh buffets – when they were sparingly available, and coveted them when they were not. In the final years of his life, Rodger spent thousands of dollars on Powerball tickets, thinking the multi-million dollar jackpot would help him purchase social acceptance and superiority. Ironically, in death, Rodger has been re-cast by mainstream news as the wealthy elitist he so yearned to be.

Elliot Rodger was also a biracial Asian American – a fact almost completely lost in mainstream coverage of this incident. He self-identified as a “beautiful Eurasian”, an identity that he believed elevated him above “full-blooded Asians”, but that he believed also hindered social and sexual acceptance by his White peers. Rodger’s fetishization of Whiteness manifests throughout his life: he bleaches his hair blonde and pursues only blonde White women. Rodger’s biracial identity clearly contributed to his feeling of social ostracism. Ironically, in death, his race has been completely White-washed.

But above all, Elliot Rodger believed himself to be a “magnificent gentleman”. He believed that society’s greatest “injustice” was its failure to accept him as the masculine ideal. Elliot Rodger believed he needed, and was entitled to, a “beautiful blonde girlfriend” to have sex with, and that his possession (for indeed, that is how he saw it) of such a woman would confer true manhood. He was enraged and embittered by his perception that the world willfully and repeatedly conspired to deny him – and him alone – access to sex. He believed the world had emasculated him, because at 22 years old, he was still a virgin.

That is, and pardon my French, utter bullshit.

Weihan "David" Wang immigrated with his parents from Tianjing, China when David was 10. His mother described him as "the joy of the family", who was looking forward to celebrating his 21st birthday with his family by visiting Yellowstone National Park next month. David was at UCSB studying Computer Science. He was 20. (Photo credit: NY Daily News)
Weihan “David” Wang immigrated with his parents from Tianjing, China when David was 10. His mother described him as “the joy of the family”, who was looking forward to celebrating his 21st birthday with his family by visiting Yellowstone National Park next month. David was at UCSB studying Computer Science. He was 20. (Photo credit: NY Daily News)

Masculinity and the Asian American Community

Questions of masculinity resonate in the Asian American community. For Asian American men, their stereotypical emasculation deeply impacts self-conception. For some, the uplift of Asian American male gender and sexual identity is among the most critical political priorities for Asian Americans. Most Asian American activists – myself included – embrace efforts to redefine Asian American masculinity as part of a holistic approach to challenging anti-Asian stereotypes. Yet, rarely does our community dissect what we mean when we talk about masculinity, and the tactics that we take to empower Asian American men in reclamation of it.

For Elliot Rodger, masculinity was defined primarily through sexual conquest: the degree to which a man successfully woos a woman, and the quality (i.e. beauty) of the woman wooed. Disturbingly, Rodger’s sex-based definition of masculinity was not unique: it is a definition prevalent throughout American popular culture, and one embraced by the Asian American community, too. It is reflected in countless popular culture films (for example, Don Jon), and it is a central tenet of the “seduction community” where it is called the “game”. Pick-up artistry refers to self-help workshops (costing thousands of dollars a session) that purport to teach men the seduction skills to “score” a woman (called “targets”) rating 7 or higher on the program’s standardized beauty scale.

Within the Asian American community, too, we see this sex-based version of masculinity go unchallenged.  Too often, we narrowly (and sometimes uncritically) promote pop culture images of Asian American men in sexual or romantic roles (where the character’s explicit heterosexuality alone defines the character as empowering and masculine). Too often, we revere characters like JT Tran, who sells an Asian American-specific version of pick-up artistry workshops, and David Choe, who hosted a popular Asian American-focused podcast that intended to subvert Asian American emasculation through real or manufactured tales of sexual conquest (where he also allegedly confessed to rape).

But let’s be clear: this sex-based masculinity is not actual masculinity. It is something else: let’s call it “misogylinity”.

Friends describe Chen Yuan "James" Hong as "shy" but "full of smiles". Another friend remembers his "rich laugh". He was 20.
Friends describe Chen Yuan “James” Hong as “shy” but “full of smiles”. Another friend remembers his “rich laugh”. He was 20.

Masculinity vs. “Misogylinity”

Misogylinity (and yes, I did just make up a word) defines masculinity by the objectified ownership of female sexuality, and in so doing commodifies us as tokens for the purposes of keeping masculine score. Furthermore, misogylinity is distinctly racist: for Elliot Rodger, mainstream America, and even some of Asian America, the sliding scale of female attractiveness posits White women as the pinnacle, and the worth of women of colour progressively decreasing as melanin content increases.

Within the Asian American community, the fight to correct systemic emasculation of our Asian American men is not fringe: it is a mainstream, politicized rationale for our general social justice advocacy. And while this cause is righteous, I can’t help but wonder: have we allowed ourselves to believe that this end justifies any means? Do we sometimes let the fight to reclaim Asian American masculinity rationalize the recreation of systems of oppression against other Asian American identities? Does our unwavering focus on the goal of correcting Asian American emasculation sometimes result in failures to examine how these efforts might also silently reinforce sexism, heterosexism and misogylinity?

Can we be doing better?

Friends say that Katie Cooper's smile "lit up the room" when she walked in. Cooper was a member of the Delta Delta Delta sorority, and is remembered as a smart, popular girl active in many clubs and the track team. She was 22. (Photo credit: NBC LA)
Friends say that Katie Cooper’s smile “lit up the room” when she walked in. Cooper was a member of the Delta Delta Delta sorority, and is remembered as a smart, popular girl active in many clubs and the track team. She was 22. (Photo credit: NBC LA)

Asian America’s Radical “Misogylinists”

At the extreme margins of Asian Americana, misogylinity has taken hold as a thriving sub-culture. Here, some Asian American men have expressed for over a decade a hatred frighteningly similar to that of Elliot Rodger. The parallels are not abstract.

Like Elliot Rodger, these men feel profoundly wronged by their perceived emasculation. Like Elliot Rodger, these men embrace the language of the men’s rights movement, and the misogyny of the seduction community. Like Elliot Rodger, these men bitterly lament their fate as “unintentionally celibate” (Rodger used the phrase “kissless virgin”).

Like Elliot Rodger, these Asian American men believe it to be the duty of women to offer sex to men, in order to boost their partner’s masculinity and sexual desirability; specifically, they believe it the responsibility of Asian American women to personally challenge Asian American emasculation by limiting their sexual choices to Asian American men. Like Elliot Rodger, these men characterize women who refuse to commodify their own sexuality as stupid, sluts, or race traitors (or all of the above), and even promote sexual violence against them.

Wherein a commenter implies I would be better off raped.
Wherein a commenter implies I would be better off raped.

Like Elliot Rodger, these men anecdotally catalog every witnessed romantic relationship as representative of society’s larger sexual rejection of them. Like Elliot Rodger, these men rate the worth of a woman based predominantly — or exclusively – on her sexuality and her choice in sexual partner. For these Asian American men, specific vitriol is aimed at Asian American women in interracial relationships, which is seen as sufficient indication of internalized racial self-hate (see comments of this post for examples).

This isn't direct at me, but at Elliot Rodger's mother. She is a sellout because she married interracially.
This isn’t direct at me, but at Elliot Rodger’s mother. Apparently, she hates her Asian-ness because she married interracially.

Like Elliot Rodger, these men routinely use misogynistic language (i.e. sellout, bitch, cunt, whore, etc) to characterize women.

Wherein I am called a cunt. With a period, because that makes it better.
Wherein I am called a cunt. With a period, because that makes it better.

And like Elliot Rodger, some of these men will even take action, confronting women directly with harassment. But, in addition to your usual online sexism, Asian American female writers also face a specific brand of confrontational and misogynistic harassment. We are forced to endure Asian American men who tweet at us with an uninvited and unrelenting barrage of misogynistic language, the digital equivalent to Rodgers’ serial drink-splashing of local Isla Vista couples in the months leading up to the attack.

They engage in drive-by sexism, to “teach us a lesson”, to shame us for our feminism; significantly, it is also all completely unprovoked. Further, it arrives from members of our own racial communities, attacking not just our identities as women, but also our identification as Asian Americans. Questions of our racial authenticity coming from men who might otherwise be our political allies makes the damage all the worse.

Wherein... something.
Wherein… something.

I have blocked no less than five such accounts – all of which tweeted at me daily with a string of misogynistic insults – in the last few months. All of the screen-captures here are from the last month, when I actually started an archive of my own harassment.

Yes, All Women

I do not claim that the behaviour seen here comes from all or even most Asian American men. It’s not all (or even most) Asian American men, and I am thankful for that.

But, I can say with absolute certainty that these men are pervasive enough to have harassed virtually all Asian American women with any degree of prominence over the years, myself included. #YesALLWomen.

I do not claim that all or even most Asian American men – or, all or even most Asian American misogynists – will resort to the kind of heinous violence exemplified by Elliot Rodger. Elliot Rodger wanted to outlaw sex, put women in concentration camps and starve us to death, and to rule the world as a tyrannical despot. What made Elliot Rodger a killer was not his misogyny alone. Elliot Rodger was not all (or even most) men.

But, I can say with absolute certainty that the kind of confrontational, dehumanizing hatred of women for our sexual choices that Elliot Rodger used to justify his heinous acts is more commonplace than within the mind of one lone killer. It is familiar to all women, including Asian American women. #YesALLWomen.

You may have been horrified by the ideas presented in Elliot Rodger’s disturbed manifesto, and the profound misogyny expressed therein.

What frightened me was how familiar it was.

To express oneself as an Asian American woman and self-identified feminist is to expose ourselves to overt misogyny and misogylinity so deeply toxic as to remind of Elliot Rodger’s disturbed manifesto, yet so commonplace as to become routine, and furthermore so invisible as to go either completely unchallenged or otherwise totally dismissed – and therefore implicitly condoned – by far too many of our Asian American male allies.

N’jaila Rhee (@blasianbytch) asks:

“For years “pick up artists” have targeted the Asian community by preying on insecurity by re-enforcing racist stereotypes. Why have they been able to go unchallenged when they visit ivy league schools to spread their homophobic misogyny. There is such vitriol against Asian American feminist voices… We must address how toxic it is for Asian Americans to embrace white supremacist patriarchy.”

I agree. If we are going to use the UCSB shooting as a national “teachable moment” to challenge institutionalized sexism and misogyny, shouldn’t Asian Americans also look inward?

Why is this brand of misogylinity — which so closely resembles the hate of Elliot Rodgers — not repudiated more widely by us? More generally, why are ideas that originate out of the seduction community that objectify and commodify female sexuality still vocally espoused (or silently condoned)?

And, why is Asian American feminism still struggling to find our footing as a mainstream Asian American political ideology?

Veronica Weiss was a freshman, an avid water polo player, and a member of the Delta Delta Delta sorority. Her father remembers "she was making straight As. She was making friends. She was studying like a maniac and loving every minute of it." (Photo credit: The Daily Mail)
Veronika Weiss was a freshman, an avid water polo player, and a member of the Delta Delta Delta sorority. Her father remembers “she was making straight As. She was making friends. She was studying like a maniac and loving every minute of it.” She was 19. (Photo credit: The Daily Mail)

Redefining Masculinity

I have been routinely accused – often by these very same Asian American misogynists – of having a problem with Asian American men. Let me be clear: I don’t have a problem with Asian American men. I firmly believe in the political uplift of Asian American men, and the dismantling of institutionalized Asian American emasculation.

I just think that our definition of masculinity – specifically, our uncritical embrace of mainstream misogylinity – is flawed.

Misogylinity – masculinity defined by sexual conquest, or what the seduction community calls the “game” – is fundamentally misogynist; it is also heterosexist and racist. It fails to critically challenge racist stereotypes, including those that posit Black men as hypersexual and Asian American men as asexual. Individual, straight men of colour might achieve a modicum of masculine success by playing this “game” and repositioning themselves towards the center (defined by normative Whiteness),  but this doesn’t challenge the fundamental stereotypes upon which the entire misogylinist “game” is built. Even if some Asian American win, all Asian American men still lose because the “game” is fundamentally rigged against us.

The solution that brings actual uplift of Asian American men – and all men of colour – is to stop playing. It is to change the rules.

Over the weekend I had a long conversation with one of the most important men in my life on this topic: Snoopy Jenkins (@SnoopyJenkins). As a man of colour whom I respect (although to be fair I’m biased), he defines masculinity by specific character traits: honour, self-respect, self-confidence, assertiveness, drive, protectiveness of those one loves. Masculinity is the creation of a personal moral code and living by those principles. Masculinity is fatherhood, friendship, respect, and love.

(Note: This is not to say that these traits cannot also define femininity; society’s persistent embrace of a bipolar definition of gender – masculine vs feminine – is an interesting topic that deserves its own space.)

Christopher Michael-Martinez was "an engaging, happy guy who had a bright future", according to his former high school principle. The UCSB sophomore was majoring in English and planned to study abroad next year. He was 20. (Photo credit: NY Daily News)
Christopher Michael-Martinez was “an engaging, happy guy who had a bright future”, according to his former high school principal. The UCSB sophomore was majoring in English and planned to study abroad next year. He was 20. (Photo credit: NY Daily News)

More fundamentally, what distinguishes masculinity from misogylinity is that the former is defined by a man’s relationship to himself, whereas the latter is defined by a man’s relationship to others – women and other men.

This is a version of masculinity that I think all of us can get down with; or rather, one that we must get down with. It doesn’t posit the masculine aspiration as the athletic, straight, White man, and challenge men of marginalized identities – gay, men of colour, etc – to pursue an ideal they could never fully achieve (nor should they really want to). It further doesn’t objectify and commodify women, by appropriating our sexuality for the purposes of keeping masculine score.

This positive and empowered masculinity is gaining traction: it is central, for example, to The Good Men Project and Hyphen Magazine’s Mr. Hyphen pageant. I love to quote this interview with Sean Miura, Mr. Hyphen of 2013, where he defines his masculinity thusly:

“I know a lot of people who are like ‘we need more Daniel Dae Kims and sexy built dudes’ and I’m just ‘yeah, that would be great, but I also think we need more nerdy guys who are totally funny and able to hold their own, and I also think that we need more guys who are super athletic, and we need more super fierce queer Asian American men on stage,” he says. “When we branch out of the mainstream idea of ‘this is what a guy should be’ and look more into human beings being as they are, the moment we’re able to be ok with that, that would be awesome.”

Exactly.

For far too long, the Asian American community has sought to uplift Asian American masculinity without truly exploring what we mean by this. Friday evening’s tragic mass shooting at UC Santa Barbara was deplorable, but if we are determined to learn something from it, I hope one of the things we can do is finally examine America’s overtly narrow, and flawed, definition of masculinity, and our own problematic pursuit of it.

We must stop trying to win the zero-sum misogylinity “game”. We must reject it.

We must work to redefine our community’s entire concept of masculinity so that it reflects important character traits – self-assurance, honour, integrity, intelligence and respect; traits that I believe many Asian American men already possess in spades; traits that I believe truly define manhood.

And, as for Elliot  Rodger? I’ve already spent far too much time in his ugly, twisted little world; more time than that man ever deserved. I look forward to soon forgetting his name.

Read More:

Many Thanks: Jeff Yang (@originalspin), N’jaila Rhee (@blasianbytch), Oliver Wang, and SnoopyJenkins (@snoopyjenkins) for engaging in enlightening conversation with me to help organize my thoughts for this piece.

509 thoughts on “Masculinity vs. “Misogylinity”: what Asian Americans can learn from #UCSB shooting | #YesAllWomen

  1. Jenn, thank you for this wonderful article – as usual, extremely well thought out and informed by your own consciousness and understanding. I also appreciate the shoutout to my blog at Psychology Today.

    You touch on a subject – in the pathology of the externalized woman as “object” – on which Carl Jung might have something to offer, at least as I understand it. All our psyches are composed of masculine and feminine parts. The man’s anima, his feminine, is a deep part of his unconscious, and often projected onto the outside world when not integrated. So I would say that Rodger had certainly not come to terms with his own femininity. He hated and despised all the qualities of the classical ‘feminine’ – compassion, kindness, openness etc – and thus reduced himself to his sexual and material needs. He is looking for “Eve”, so to speak, not a “Helen, Mary or Sophia” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_and_animus , even though I know that these archetypes don’t do justice to the diversity of women at all, and really speak more to archetypal qualities.

  2. strange word, well-expressed concept ;) I read that positive description of masculinity and thought ‘that’s what I think are the traits of a person’. do there need to be oppositional definitions of masculinity/femininity? do we have a psychological need for those?

  3. The mainstream news has branded this another incident of white male violence. Three Asian American males are victims of white privilege murder. Equating this act as something akin to what Asian American males might condone shows an extreme level of disrespect from your part.

  4. Fred, I suspect you may not have read through this article clearly enough. Elliot Rodger was not White and the branding of this incident as “White privilege murder” is clumsy at best. Also, I specifically say Elliot Rodger’s violence is NOT something Asian American men would condone.

  5. There’s a red pill subreddit that targets Asian American men. They were looking to recruit from disaffected AAPIs from /r/AsianAmerican and /r/AsianTwoX but they were denounced, lambasted, and generally shunned. Even then, their message of an empowered AAPI man was appealing to a small minority of members despite its ideological extreme.

    In the short term, the empowerment narrative provided by PUA misogyny is powerful because it is superficially pragmatic. So while members of that community are more than willing to include minority PUA stars like you’ve noted, its structure depends on the social construction of race such that there exists a hierarchy that can be quantified and thus combated. This is the kind of narrative that someone who has been bullied throughout their lives finds a lot of relief in. It runs parallel with the movement by nerds to reappropriate the oppressed minority narrative and it’s something that seems particularly relevant here.

    One thing you get from reading Eliott Rodger’s story is that it’s really, *really* fucking sad. From Wikipedia:

    According to his family’s attorney and a family friend, Rodger had seen multiple therapists since he was eight years old and while he was a student at Santa Barbara City College […] The lawyer also said that Rodger was diagnosed with “high-functioning Asperger syndrome” as a child.[51][52]

    By the ninth grade, Rodger was “increasingly bullied” and he stated that he “cried by [himself] at school every day.”[53] […] During his time at Crespi Carmelite High, he was bullied by other students, who once taped his head to his desk when he fell asleep.[9][55] In 2012, Rodger stated that the “one friend I had in the whole world who truly understood” him “blatantly said he didn’t want to be friends anymore,” without offering him a reason for abandoning the friendship.[53]

    Reading that, you don’t get this idea of Eliott Rodger as some kind of hate-filled, entitled, misogynistic psychopath. Instead, what you have is someone who underwent the extreme psychological pressures of ostracism as a result of his behavioral problems (and possibly race) who could find no other community which would include him and could offer him a path out of his misery.

    And with that you run into the problem intersectionality has faced since day one: criticism is great, pointing out social issues is fantastic and relevant and illuminating, but now what? Trickle-down feminism is great for white, middle-class women but it doesn’t do anything to empower and assist immigrant care workers who are paid dirt wages and work long hours. Cheryl Sandberg is just too fucking busy making sure that her children of privilege get into Ivy League schools to give half a shit about the women who work longer and harder at far more menial and emotionally depleting work while also providing for families of their own.

    How do you solve the issue of Elliott Rodger without a complete and utter overhaul of the educational system and engaging with how society treats its lessers? How do you uplift a social underclass of people? I don’t think you can do it with the kind of criticism #YesAllWomen provides. As important as that may be, this isn’t the hill I think female empowerment wants to die on. And the fixation on the symbols the news media shoves at you (the BMW, the PUA, the videos, and so on) doesn’t help.

    There needs to be community. There needs to be more people who are more willing to reach out and be there for the undesireable and the difficult because I don’t think we can claim to be all-inclusive and empowering if we simply ignore the suffering of other human beings just to make a point. That’s not what it means to be an open-minded, well-meaning individual.

  6. @Gubbler, just FYI there is a commenting policy on this site. You’re RIGHT at the line of commentary I would not approve. I would suggest you tread carefully if you want to continue participating in the conversation here.

  7. Thank you for writing this article, Jenn. Like you, I have been trying to gather my thoughts on this (especially in terms of race, as much more has been said from the gender angle), and reading articles like yours and the ones you linked have helped immensely. Contrary to what Fred said, I think we lost not three but four brothers in this tragedy.

    I know this because I’ve known Asian American followers of PUA. I’ve seen the elevation of white women, the hatred and blame directed at Asian women, and the invisibility of women who don’t fit into these two categories. When I read that the murderer expressed desire for blonde, white women to show his alpha maleness, the familiarity of that sentiment was horrifying.

    I know this because whiter features were prized in the Taiwanese American community I grew up in – higher noses, bigger eyes, lighter skin. Mixed white children were fetishized as being more beautiful (this is not to say their personal feelings were respected). In the media, mixed white actors are more employable, more successful. I can probably name more mixed white/Asian actors than monoracial Asian American ones: Maggie Q, Daniel Henney, Chloe Bennet, Moon Bloodgood, Olivia Munn, and Kristin Kreuk come to mind. When the murderer talked about his longing for whiteness, that again was horrifyingly familiar.

    I know this because, in the multitude of news stories that followed this tragedy, the Asian victims are a footnote, if not omitted entirely. (Jenn, thank you for spotlighting the Asian victims and putting them up front.) Some news articles say Wang was a roommate, some say he wasn’t. I’ve seen the candle stealing incident attributed to Chen, Wang, and Hong, though it clearly only involved one of the three. The same quotes have even been attributed to the grieving parents of more than one of the three housemates. The media erases the Asian victims just as it erases the murderer’s Asian heritage.

    I want to be clear – I neither empathize with nor care about the murderer. I don’t want to say his name nor see his face; I scroll quickly past his picture in every article I read. What I am concerned about are the tiny vestiges of his poisonous mindset that linger in the rest of Asian America, myself included.

  8. @RWW

    Thank you, that means a lot. Your comment hit EVERY minor detail I had hoped to include (particularly the highlighting of George Chen, David Wang and James Hong as victims), so I’m glad you noticed. In truth, I see this incident as Asian-on-Asian crime. Elliot Rodger was biracial, and part of our diaspora, as much as both he and we would rather he was not. We lost four brothers on Friday night, although I would assert we lost one brother a LOOOOOONG time ago, and he was replaced with a monster. I have visceral hatred for Elliot Rodger, but he was still Asian American, and it frustrates me that this facet has become totally invisible in mainstream coverage, not in fairness to Elliot Rodger, but what that default White-washing says to all other biracial Asian Americans in our community.

    If I have the energy, there will be a second post on Rodger’s racial identity with all the material that was cut from this one (yes it was longer at one point!). Hopefully it will address some more of the issues you raised here. But thank you, thank you, thank you for your comment!

  9. Thank you for highlighting this facet of this tragedy that this impacts the Asian community as well. When I read Rodger’s racist diatribe against Asian males and then heard he was half-Asian himself I knew that this anger and hatred could also stem from a twisted self-hatred and blamed his identity as half-Asian as contributing to his social demise. And thank you for clearly stating NOT ALL Asian-American males are like this.

    But I can guarantee you that a majority of Asians and Asian-American males go through a series of self-doubt and self-identity hatred for the everyday emasculating, denigrating messages we see and are subjected to and is accepted by Western society . And it’s not just Asian males, but the negative imagery of Asian females as well in the Western world. Trolls like Gubbler, tv shows like “Two Broke Girls’” Asian whipping boy, Ken Jeong’s “The Hangover” character, music videos that portray Asian call girls and the pervasiveness of “me so horny”, Colbert’s attempt at calling out racism by using racism as satire and the racist avalanche aimed at Suey Park, the notion Asian women only want to marry and sleep with White guys, and the very fucking annoying fact that this all gets wrapped under the ” ‘Relax it’s only a joke’” category.

    People who don’t go through what A-AMs go through think it’s a once or rare occurrence so it should be easy for us to “lighten up”. Fuck no. It’s a weekly to everyday thing and the weight of that shit really gets exhausting, annoying and cloying to ignore. And it’s easy to feel ostracized when it happens so much.

    So Asian males go turbo with the macho to overcome this social disability. Some reflect old world mentality. But that’s not excuse for misogyny or perpetuating rape culture. It needs to be stopped by reflection.

    I for one do NOT give Rodger’s action any credibility or that his motives are in anyway excusable no matter what internal social dysfunction like racism causes it. He should be vilified as much as Seung-Hui Cho (the shooter at Virginia Tech) despite our understanding of the conditions Asian-Americans live through.

    But the very fact you point this out and that this should serve as a reflection to Asians.

  10. The problem with Asian males is that they think that “game”, working out, and trying to be more sexual will make any difference. All asian males need to understand one thing: if you want to be successful in dating/romance, much like the Asian male ’49s of the past, you have to seek out women who are willing to look past/don’t care that you’re an Asian man. Nothing you yourself can do will change how society views you, but you can still find someone who will love you anyways.

    Killing white women and talking shit to Asian women online won’t help, Asian men. You all need to “man” up.

  11. Thank you for your exploration of the meanings in this tragic episode. I will never understand the psychology, but I can’t help thinking how a lot of the simplest truths are still true: Money can’t buy you love, begin with self-acceptance, there is someone for everyone, everyone in the world is better than someone else and everyone has someone better than them, and so on. It’s as if Mr. Rodger saw things through crap-colored glasses and would rather destroy the whole world than take them off.

  12. Three asians dead, all male and NOT misogynists…Why are bashing the asian community at a time like this?

  13. @Jenn

    Clearly you are just using Elliot’s asian ancestry to make your points about asian men which are totally irrelevant.

  14. it is normal for oppressed minority men to display hypermasculinity as a reaction to oppression and emasculation. blacks and latinos have went through it, and now it is time for asian american men because the asian american population has hit critical mass.

  15. If multiple people are “misreading” your post, either you should write more clearly or you are communicating the wrong message. Some people are just not good at explaining and writing. Nothing wrong with being one of them.

  16. @John

    Nope, try again.

    @Anon

    Yes, this post has reached 7000 reads and nearly a thousand shares in about 6 hours because people have no idea what I’m talking about.

    On the other hand, some people just aren’t good at literacy. Nothing wrong with being one of them.

  17. Why are AA female feminists, like you, so fixated on redefining masculinity for AA males? Why are you confused when your version of masculinity just DON’T appeal to us?

    Don’t tell us HOW to become a man, just like we don’t tell you HOW to be a woman. This is exactly the mentality of traditional dads (and I am not only talking Asian dads here) pushing their daughters to the traditional feminine ideals and JUST NOT GETTING the point that their ideals are extremely unappealing.

    What if sexual conquest is indeed appealing to us as man? Just like it would be extremely stupid and controlling for us to tell you to not to have sex with lots of man, it is extremely stupid and controlling for you to tell us that “we shouldn’t want to have sex with lots of woman”. Are you getting the irony and extreme hypocrisy of what you preach?

    AA female feminist like you just piss me off. You are preaching the exact same thing onto us AA males that feminist have been pushing back for ages.

  18. all the misogynist asian american “redpill” men i know have without fail been always raised in a nihilistic amoral and materialistic environment by ex colonial/new rich peasant family parents who never taught them to develop personal character, but only the pursuit of wealth and power through studying. they are without a language, culture, tradition, and history. they are the mirror image of their hated “sellout whores”,
    being intelligent and “nerdy” does not make you a good human being. being intelligent without morals just makes you that much more capable of evil. this is why at the end of the day the asian american “commmunity” amounts to nothing more than fried rice and worship of genitalia of outsiders.

  19. Another issue is simply addressing Asian men. There are community programs for Black men, Black women, Latin@s, Asian women – hell, even white men and white women. Asian men occupy an interesting position in the privilege cycle. We are certainly privileged in some ways and yet marginalized in others: the distinction is very fine.

    Without level-headed discussions involving members of the same particular community who share similar experiences (i.e. not faceless forum diatribes), I see our young men being drawn into unhealthy ways of expressing masculinity. As an Asian man, I see nothing wrong with holding masculine values by themselves; it’s its potential (perhaps tendency?) for self-aggrandizement and dismissal of other identities that are, in my mind, the major issue.

    Cars, homeland sex work scenes, and pick-up artists are the only messages I see being directed at Asian men. A farcical representation of Western masculine values, or traditionally patriarchal family structures are the only obvious options presented. Where are the programs that encourage Asian cis-men to simply be good people? Not warriors, not alpha males, nor conquerors, but part of a whole community that needs them and everyone else.

    On top of that we also subject ourselves to our own stereotyping. Yes, misogyny and sexism are real and absolutely need to be addressed in our countries and communities. But Western media portrayals never stop reminding us that Asian men are inadequate, bad guys. If you are an Asian man, you know what it feels like for people to have already judged you as misogynistic, homophobic, and racist. I know I do. Even Asian women often oppressed me on racial grounds (“Asian men aren’t cute/are wife beaters/can’t dance/are too short”, anything related to penises, etc.).

    When I was younger, and arguably dumber, I faced few obvious choices to identify with. I chose to not identify as Asian as much as possible – I respect women, LGBT folks, and other races, after all! I only hung out with white people, whom I perceived as being the most open and tolerant. I also knew other Asian men who decided to go full-on macho and live up to every expectation of Asian men that I outlined (::cough:: Asian frats ::cough::). BUT, there are many variations within regions and individual families. As I learned my white friends were not all that open, I also recognized the strength of the women in my family and the deference the men often showed. Yes, there is a division of labor, but traditional attitudes (in my community/ethnicity at least) placed roughly equal weight to gender roles – and often emphasizing the feminine role. It was right in front of me the whole time but I could not see it because I assumed it was not there.

    We have many examples in our community of male-female-and-everything-in-between cooperative strength. They are far from perfect, but are the grounds on which to build a home-brewed way to address these complex issues. We need to champion those examples and stop stereotyping ourselves. We need to let all our people know that being a feminist is being Asian, that being open minded is being Asian, that ultimately Asians can and should define what being Asian is.

  20. Hi Jenn,

    Sorry if this comment is tangential. But what is forgotten is that Rodger also faced an intersection of racism and ableism. And that emasculation of Asian American men *is* one of the biggest problems in the media – a field in which his parents worked.

    If Rodger had learned dating skills, this may not have happened. Unfortunately one of the most readily available options for social skills coaching is the seduction community, which harbors toxic attitudes. Some people do successfully learn relationship skills there, though.

    A person with Asperger’s isn’t able to pick up social skills on their own. They need explicit, detailed instruction on how to interact with others. You mentioned that some Asian American men are into PUA, but another group that is overrepresented is men with Asperger’s and autism.

    What also needs to be addressed is the lack of spaces for young people to truly learn positive relationships in an explicit, step-by-step way – especially when they are trying to cope with the impact of other intersectionalities like racial and gender hierarchies. Just my $.02

  21. “redpill” and “feminism” are both sides of the same coin. both asian men and women who are obsessed about these kind of things live to appease white people.

  22. Thank you Jenn for this article–

    As a dorky, nerdy, Asian American man who prides himself on a life of honor and self-respect, I think you’ve allowed me to have a word to add to my vocabulary. I think this article is a great screening litmus test for distinguishing people who who believe in masculinity vs. misogylinity based on their pure, visceral responses alone.

    Refreshing read and thought-provoking,

    Alexander Nguyen


  23. We must work to redefine our community’s entire concept of masculinity so that it reflects important character traits – self-assurance, honour, integrity, intelligence and respect; traits that I believe many Asian American men already possess in spades; traits that I believe truly define manhood.


    I would feel better about this statement if I could be sure that we don’t already – as a general rule – expect the men (and women, for that matter) in our community to have these qualities. What is there to re-define if we already value these qualities in men? I think that part (the major part, perhaps) of emasculation of Asian men is the lack of recognition (culturally at least) for these very qualities – the sexual debasement of Asian men is, to my mind, merely a way of deflecting attention away from the fact that Asian men are human and possess humane qualities. In other words, emasculation of Asian men is the light-humored way to dehumanize them.

    That aside, there is another aspect of this event that I have wondered about. Obviously, the guy had pretty severe mental problems, but was also – apparently – mildly autistic, which would make sense of his inability to form healthy bonding relationships with his peers. I believe that Rodger had psychological intervention for many years, but I wonder how much his racial experiences might have been beyond the scope of his therapists (if they were indeed non-Asians) to effectively address?

    I don’t know for sure, but I would doubt that there is much psychological study being done on what the effects of America’s normalized culture of dehumanizing of Asians might have on mental health and psychological states of Asian people, and hence I wonder if therapists are able to provide adequate treatment plans and strategies.

  24. Jenn,

    This is a textbook example of begging the question. Your opening statement, the idea that the Asian American community has any culpability or lesson to
    learn from this incident other than to learn to identify the signs of mental illness is incredibly disingenuous to the facts surrounding Roger’s worldview and
    mental state. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’ve read Roger’s own writing, but he did not in any material or psychological way associate
    with the larger Asian American community or the male Asian American community in particular, other than through expression of disgust and dehumanization.
    Read:

    “Full Asian men are disgustingly ugly and white girls would never go for you. You’re just butthurt that you were born as an asian piece of shit, so you lash out
    by linking these fake pictures. You even admit that you wish you were half white. You’ll never be half-white and you’ll never fulfill your dream of marrying a
    white woman. I suggest you jump off a bridge.” “Today I drove through the area near my college and saw some things that were extremely rage-inducing. I passed by this restaurant and I saw this black guy chilling with 4 hot white girls. He didn’t even look good. Then later on in the day I was shopping at Trader Joe’s and saw an Indian guy with 2 above average
    White Girls!!! What rage-inducing sights did you guys see today? Don’t you just hate seeing these things when you go out? It just makes you want to quit life.”

    It’s clear he has an incredibly ethnocentric view of the world and warped concepts of a racial sexual hierarchy, but he clearly draws his “masculinity… objectified
    ownership of female sexuality” from his lofty position as a person of white/British lineage, and NOT as you seem to be implying, from some kind of stereotypical
    Asian male patriarchal worldview. As convenient as it would be to pull things out of the ether and assume that Rogers is an Asian American male misogynist of
    the kind that trolls online discussions and participates in pick up culture, the kind that you yourself are familiar with, the truth is that he looked down on Asians,
    and believed that he deserved to own women’s’ sexuality because he was white and wealthy, not because he was an (half) Asian American male.

    Now, you can, as you’ve countless times before in this thread state that I “haven’t read the post” but the truth is that I have, and the arguments that you’ve made rest upon a fundamentally flawed assumption that there is any relation between Roger’s violence and the Asian American community other than a deep seated self-
    loathing and ample amounts of mental health issues.

    I’m no more a supporter of misogynistic online trolls and fetishization of blondes as anyone else, but these can be attributed to any misogynistic or fetish community, and within the Asian American community, only a minority of a minority. Roger’s violence is the result of his inability to meet the white masculine ideal, NOT the Asian one.

  25. Hi Jenn,

    I don’t dispute the points you make in this article. Asian men definitely do need to find more healthy ways of defining our masculinity. I agree wholeheartedly.

    But the timing of this article is, to be frank, insulting. A racist who hated Asian men along just stabbed three of them to death. The vitriol he spewed is nothing new. Probably every Asian american man has heard some shade of it and in this case, drove a man to murder three of us.

    You couldn’t wait a week for the hurt to subside before submitting this article?

    One could argue that White women’s dating habits help uphold White supremacy (they do have the lowest rate of interracial marriage after all). One could also write an article about how they should re-examine their beliefs about race and masculinity in the wake of this tragedy. But then again, White women were targeted and two were killed so it would be in poor taste.

  26. Why is my comment still awaiting moderation? Please note I am not the same as “Anon” up there

  27. @Anony

    Why is my comment still awaiting moderation? Please note I am not the same as “Anon” up there

    Because I went to lunch.

    @FuBoIn

    As convenient as it would be to pull things out of the ether and assume that Rogers is an Asian American male misogynist of
    the kind that trolls online discussions and participates in pick up culture, the kind that you yourself are familiar with, the truth is that he looked down on Asians,
    and believed that he deserved to own women’s’ sexuality because he was white and wealthy, not because he was an (half) Asian American male.

    You missed the middle part of the post which asserted that Asian American men embrace misogylinity, which is a universal and flawed definition of masculinity. Elliot Rodgers’ definition of masculinity is America’s definition of masculinity — which equates manhood with sexual conquest — and goes unchallenged by Asian Americans as well. It is the popular definition of masculinity, as we can see routinely throughout White and Asian American culture.

    I don’t doubt you’ve read the post, but since there is about three paragraphs in the middle that address this directly, and then it ends on the same note, it’s hard for me to meaningfully respond to your charges about flawed logic when your interpretation of my argument is not, in fact, my argument. Elliot Rodgers was not an adherent to a uniquely Asian American version of misogylinity. Asian Americans are adherents to popular American misogylinity. Where Elliot Rodgers becomes relevant to our community is that we, unlike most communities, are consciously and deliberately involved in questions of manhood vis-a-vis the stereotypical emasculation of Asian American men and our efforts to combat it. For us, the question of emasculation and how to fight it — the struggle that supposedly motivated Elliot Rodgers — is something we assert as a major political priority. We are focused on changing masculinity, but I’m rarely aware of conversation about how or what we want to change Asian American masculinity into. If it is to simply make it easier for Asian American men to reinforce mainstream misogylinity, than is that really a worthy goal? I assert that if nothing else, Elliot Rodger’s heinous acts give us an opportunity to have a much-needed conversation about what we mean when we talk about masculinity, how to achieve it, and what that means for Asian Americans.

    That is the thesis of this post. If you read this post as an identification of Elliot Rodger as another AAPI male misogynist troll, and a consequent condemnation of Asian American men, then yes, I’m very very sorry, but you are reading it wrong.

    @Dave

    But the timing of this article is, to be frank, insulting. A racist who hated Asian men along just stabbed three of them to death. The vitriol he spewed is nothing new. Probably every Asian american man has heard some shade of it and in this case, drove a man to murder three of us.

    You couldn’t wait a week for the hurt to subside before submitting this article?

    He also shot to death two women because he believed they and all women were at-fault for not giving him the sex he felt he was entitled to. There’s a lot of hurt to go around. The entire internet is having a national conversation on misogyny right now, that has been focused on popular sexism and misogyny. I wrote this post because I believe strongly that if we’re going to have that conversation, we should be able to have that conversation from both a relevant and intersectional perspective. Are you arguing that the Asian American community should get a pass from having to confront our own misogyny right now because Elliot Rodger was also racist against “full-blooded Asians”?

  28. This is another case of the most sexually celebrated people (asian women) telling the most asexualized people (asian men) that…you should define your masculinity on asexual terms. keep the status quo.

  29. @Ben

    I would feel better about this statement if I could be sure that we don’t already – as a general rule – expect the men (and women, for that matter) in our community to have these qualities. What is there to re-define if we already value these qualities in men?

    Again, this is sort of the point of the post. In the current misogylinist “game”, Asian American men are emasculated by a system that is built on racist and sexist hierarchies and presumptions all round. We expect these traits in men (and women), but what we don’t do is use these traits to define masculinity. We assert that to achieve masculinity is something else, something having to do with sex.

    If we redefined masculinity towards something that as a rule a lot of people already have, than yes, we’re restoring masculinity to all men, including Asian American men who have been historically denied access to assumed masculinity. It’s a redefinition because, unfortunately, it is the misogylinity framework that predominates. I made up a word to describe a phenomenon we already recognize and most of us have, at one time or another, unintentionally perpetuated: that masculinity is defined by or characterized by or has anything to do with sexual conquest. The word is new, the phenomenon is not.

    When we redefine masculinity (and feminity) towards positive traits like those listed, having as a core tenet a confidence and assurance of self rather than the proof of sexual dominance to others, than we still have an aspirational manhood/womanhood. It’s just an aspirational manhood that is more about encouraging men (and women) to love who they are, whoever they are.

  30. @John

    I’m asserting that all men, regardless of race, should stop defining masculinity according to sexuality, because… (see the post). It’s not an idea limited to Asian American men. It’s not like I’m saying “misogylinity is great when White guys do it”.

  31. Thanks for responding Jenn

    I find it a bit ironic that you didn’t pick up on the double standard in your reply. The entire internet is having a discussion on misogyny (as we should) due to the two women who were targeted and killed. That makes sense. Rodger was a misogynist.

    What is the response for the same man killing three Asian men due to his racial beliefs? Not a discussion on racism and white supremacy but largely silence from a mainstream media that will gloss over the Asian men’s deaths in favor of the blond White victims and a lecture on how Asian men need to fix misogyny in our communities.

    I never asked for a “pass” as you put it. I suggested that you could have waited a week for wounds to heal. Perhaps in some time there could be an internet discussion on how some White.women uphold and perpetrate White male supremacy. But you can see how it would be in incredibly poor taste to post such a critique immediately following this tragedy.

  32. How can you so easily attribute the conduct of Elliott Rodgers to Asian American men at-large over the conduct of the THREE ACTUAL Asian American men he killed if you do not have a bias against Asian guys? At first blush, your BS and vitriol made no sense to me but after seeing more of you, I get it. The bitterness from rejection by Asian guys is strong in you.

    The traits of Rodgers more closely depict a white guy. Entitled. Misoygnistic. Arrogance. Douchiness. Taking shortcuts. No respect of parents. Blame others for own failures. Bring others down to raise own confidence.

    Yes his mom is in fact a self-hating Asian. That’s as “Asian” as Elliott Rodgers gets. Keep hating Asian guys.

  33. @Dave

    What is the response for the same man killing three Asian men due to his racial beliefs? Not a discussion on racism and white supremacy but largely silence from a mainstream media that will gloss over the Asian men’s deaths in favor of the blond White victims and a lecture on how Asian men need to fix misogyny in our communities.

    I’m glad you asked. Check back on this blog in about 24h. That discussion was cut from this post for the sake of length and focus, and is the topic of a second upcoming post.

    Also, your urge for sensitivity seems odd to me, considering I am not making any statement whatsoever about the gender perspectives of James Hong, David Wang or George Chen, other than that they were also Asian American men. By the same logic, we should be silencing the larger misogyny conversation regarding white male privilege because Christopher Michael-Martinez is a half-White man (and therefore is about as White as Rodger, but I digress).

  34. Got it, sorry if it came off pushy, I saw other posts going up and I suspected I had been mistaken for that troll.

  35. Re: Dave’s comment
    I don’t trust the mainstream media to lead a conversation about race and white supremacy, so I’m actually glad they haven’t tried. They are not at all equipped to handle the nuanced conversation about internalized self-hatred. I would much prefer this as a conversation led by Asian Americans, including mixed race Asian Americans. I look forward to part 2 of this blog post.

    Re: Christopher Michael-Martinez
    Not being Latin@, I’m definitely not the person who gets the final say in this, but I would regard him as white, since people can be any race and Latin@.

  36. You know what I find more emasculating than anything else? Seeing tons and tons of Asian women with non-Asian guys wherever I go in the Bay Area. I bet it is like that too in socal but probably worst since people down there are such assholes in general.

    Please stop blaming the media for its supposed role in emasculating Asian men. People hardly watch television nowadays and I don’t honestly see what the media has to do with anything.

    Asian women choose to be with non-Asian men to begin with. You think females of different races don’t notice that you prefer non-Asian males over your own? You think they don’t despise you at all for it? Asian women should conduct themselves with more dignity like their male counterparts do but instead, they throw themselves shamelessly at non-Asian mostly White men. Its hard for me to be proud of being Asian and male when all I see are Asian women whoring themselves out to non-Asian men everywhere I go in public.

  37. Jenn,

    You implore us to read before replying, but you seemed to have missed the very first sentence of my post: “This is a textbook example of begging the question.” I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you know what begging the question means, but your insistence on continuing to cling to ideas extrapolated from your initial assumptions leads me to believe that you don’t quite understand the nature of the point I am trying to convey. In short, “begging the question” is a logical fallacy in which one extrapolates ideas and constructs an argument on a flawed assumption. For example, I could argue that a triangle is 2 dimensional shape of 4 sides, and therefore the area of a triangle can be found by multiplying the width by the height, and I would be right in that I would find *a* area of *a* 4 sided, 2 dimensional shape, but that does not mean that I’ve found the area of a *triangle*. We’ve fundamentally misunderstood what a triangle is, and now both our conclusions about the area of the triangle and the triangle itself are wrong. As you can see, the internal components may be logically consistent, but if the initial assumption is wrong, then the argument falls in on itself.

    In much the same way, the argument that you’re trying to build, that Elliott Rodger is a scion of the Asian American male’s misogyny, is built upon the flawed assumption that Asian Americans are culpable in any capacity for Rodger’s actions. In a way, you concede the point when you state that “Elliot Rodgers was not an adherent to a uniquely Asian American version of misogylinity. Asian Americans are adherents to popular American misogylinity.” That is, assuming that you’ve read my post, the entire point. Elliott Rodger arrived at his particular form of misogyny on his own, through the channel of white supremacism and blonde fetishization. Your arguments about Asian American men, their supposed racial ownership of women, and their harassment online thereof is arrived at from completely different channels altogether.

    If your point is indeed that “[you're] asserting that all men, regardless of race, should stop defining masculinity according to sexuality, because… It’s not an idea limited to Asian American men. It’s not like [you're] saying ‘misogylinity is great when White guys do it’,” then your post should have been split into two separate posts. One, where you criticize the misogyny of American culture, and how this, white supremacy and blonde fetishization lead to Rodger’s actions; and two, where you explain the complications of American misogyny and how this manifests itself in some elements of Asian American culture, specifically the pick up subculture. At least this way, you acknowledge the distinct and discrete nature of the two problems, and you don’t conflate the two just because the guy in the first situation happened to be, but did not materially or psychologically associate with being, Asian American.

    This way, you don’t fall into the hateful trap of extending culpability like some like to do with Radicalism and Islam or criminality and Blackhood/Latin Americanhood. For what it’s worth, I had to look up who JT Tran was and I had to research David Choe’s misogyny, and believe me, they hardly register on an Asian American male’s masculinity credibility radar in comparison to guys like Jeremy Lin and Steven Yeun (both of whom are devout Christians, with Yeun in a long term relationship with his pre-fame gf), or social credibility radar like Jeff Yang, Angry Asian Man, or Jay Caspian Kang.

    So please, realize that just because a group of people are Asian and live in America, retroactive logic does not apply. Attempting to do so is to call a triangle a square.

  38. Also, I do not think “misogylinity” is going to catch on as a word. Very sorry.

  39. Jenn

    You keep insisting on missing the point. It’s not just the fact that three Asian men were killed. It’s the fact that they were killed due to their race. It’s the fact that the killer was fueled by a racial bigotry that all Asian men have faced in this country. I find it odd and a bit disturbing that you lack the empathy to understand why Asian men would feel uniquely hurt by the killings.

    The comparison you make is just absurd and quite frankly infuriating. Were White men specifically targeted? No – in fact Rodger idolized White men. The half-White victim you mentioned was killed indiscriminately in a drive by shooting. Should White men feel uniquely victimized by the context of this tragedy? No because there is no undercurrent of Anti-White male bias in this country and it certainly did not motivate him to kill a half White man. I just don’t understand how you could in good faith make such a comparison.

    So for the last time and in the hopes that you don’t ignore it yet again I will restate my previous point as a question: Do you think it would be appropriate to publish an article about how White women should re-examine their beliefs and address the ways in which they uphold White male supremacy mere days after White women were targeted and killed by a misogynist?

  40. In much the same way, the argument that you’re trying to build, that Elliott Rodger is a scion of the Asian American male’s misogyny, is built upon the flawed assumption that Asian Americans are culpable in any capacity for Rodger’s actions. – FuBoLn

    @ FuBoLn

    I have difficulty with your argument. If I understand correctly, Jenn’s post does not conflate Elliot Rodger’s misogyny with the misogyny exhibited by a minute sample of Asian Americana, rather, it highlights how Rodger’s misogyny parrots the toxic perspectives from some Asian American men so irate over emasculation stereotypes that they embrace racial hierarchies of women, pick up artistry, and sexist vehemence against Asian American women in particular (and women generally).

    It’s not clear to me where Jenn assigns culpability for Rodger’s crimes to Asian American men. If you are making that claim, I request that you point out the exact section where that assertion is written. I must have missed it.

    Further, outside of public celebrity, it’s not clear to me why Jeremy Lin, Jeff Yang, Steven Yeun, Phil Yu, and Jay Kang inhabit more masculine credibility than JT Tran and David Choe. Without question, J-Lin, Jeff Yang et al. present uplifting, holistic, family-oriented public reputations to the Asian American community, but using those guys to characterize Tran and Choe as marginal voices only asserts your preference for mainstream, family-friendly public content among Asian American men.

    You’ve given no evidence that people like Tran and Choe are more marginalized voices in the convo over Asian American masculinity, just less famous ones. But the toxic misogylinity to which Rodger subscribed finds expression in Asian American circles, on- & off-line. Tran and Choe are two public examples of that expression. Some of the comments Jenn’s writing generates offer more examples of that expression.

    Do you argue that Tran and Choe and the Asian American misogynists like them prove less representative of Asian American men than Lin and Yang and Yeun? All these guys – regardless of public reputation – are Asian American, so how can one make that argument?

  41. Hi Jenn,

    Thanks so much for writing this article. It’s a very thought-through indictment of the unfortunate and misogynistic goals that have arisen from the emasculation of Asian men.

    I’d definitely wholeheartedly agree that we need to re-focus on what it means to be masculine and be wary and condemn the terrible consequences that arise from much of the community’s twisted version of it.

    I did notice, however, that there was a strand of blame throughout your article – well-justified, given you are a writer on critical race issues in this highly combustible space (especially as anonymous commenting allows for some hideous bashing from angry asian american men).

    When I read those comments, and hear about the bashing from my AAPI male brothers, my first reaction is that it is a serious sign of the twisted mentality that stems from the sometimes hostile, emasculating environment in which we live. It’s nowhere near anything that resembles an excuse, and there’s always a choice to not be a terrible human being. And I can only imagine how horrific it is on the receiving end. But that’s, at the core, what it really is – they are symptoms of a mental instability, a depressed, antisocial, angry, unhappy being. To me, it’s an obvious cry out for help and a cry out for acceptance.

    As you are committed to the “political uplift of Asian American men, and the dismantling of institutionalized Asian American emasculation”, I think the first step is to condem the misogynistic attitudes of those AAPI males. More importantly, though, is the oft-forgotten next step – to show understanding and love to those who spew such hatred (and I’m not saying the onus is on writers in your position – it’s more than the vast majority of AAPI folks that you are taking the initiative and time to write these articles in the first place).

    Elliot Rodger had a burning, psychotic, devolving psyche, which needs to be immediately and thoroughly denounced and condemned. I just wonder if we as a community could focus on the next steps of reaching out in understanding to uplift and to provide brotherhood/sisterhood to those in need. Then perhaps we could begin to start the process of healing, and perhaps help prevent further incidents of tragedy.

  42. Thank you for this intersectional examination. We can talk about misogyny, or white supremacy, or classism, but we only gain a superficial understanding unless we look at the way they feed and reinforce each other.

    I agree that our cultural tendency to define masculine identity in terms of (hetero)sexual conquest is devastatingly problematic to both men and women. (To the commenter above who said he found the author’s example of masculinity unappealing and was happy being attracted to and pursuing many women- at the risk of putting words in Jenn’s mouth, I don’t think she was implying any problem with that. It’s the idea that masculinity is the single most important part of a man’s identity and that it is defined solely in terms of sexual experience and the number and “beauty” of their partners that is unhealthy.) I might go on to suggest that the placement of men/masculinity and women/femininity into discrete and oppositional categories is a big part of the problem. I wish I knew where the quote comes from so I could properly attribute it, but someone once pointed out that too often boys aren’t helped to grow into men, but bullied and gender-policed into not becoming women. They are constantly told, “Don’t be a pussy/pansy/bitch/little girl,” goaded by being called “women” or “ladies”; how can they help internalizing the idea that women and all things coded feminine are shameful, weak, and maybe even less than fully human?

  43. This articles pretty much sums up why I will never listen to anything an Asian feminist has to say.
    For all intents and purposes Elliot Rodgers is a white male. Firstly he shunned his Asian side while desperately clinging to his white one, feeling ‘proud’ of the fact that he felt that he looked more white than Asian. Secondly, Elliot Rodgers viewed and treated Asian men the same way white trolls treat Asian men online. I mean for goodness sake just read some of the racist comments he made against Asian men on puahate.
    Yet here you are, desperately trying to peg him as some sort of symbol of Asian male overcompensation? If anything he is symbolic of the sense of entitlement many white males have in this country and of the way in which white society can beat down and twist a POC’ sense of identity and pride. You’re basically just using this tragedy to try and piss on Asian men.
    Does it feel good to dedicate a large portion of your life pandering to non-Asian men who will never actually respect you? I mean look at all the vaguely racist comments being made on this page by them? Is this your idea of activism?

  44. You know, it hurt that the media completely ignored the 3 asian men that were stabbed to death, but to see this article really posted up so soon really put salt in the wound further. I expect this type of bullshit from the media, but from a supposed ‘sister’?

  45. @RWW

    Re: Race & part 2 – Thanks. I needed to take the night away from this so plan to start on my lunch break tomorrow. That being said, the onus should have to be on marginalized groups to present these conversations in sub-culture blogs. We can do it and will do it, but I think mainstream media can do the part if not by having the conversation (because you’re right it could be inept) to at least elevate voices (not necessarily mine, there are other Asian Americans and other higher POC of much higher profile) to do this.

    Re: Christopher Michael-Martinez – I haven’t seen any indication of how he self-identified, and I hadn’t yet had time to check in detail about his heritage. But either way, it was a rhetorical note: if we’re going to be invalidating this conversation on AAPI masculinity/misogynity because of the tragic killing of James Hong, David Wang and George Chen, the same logic would invalidate the larger #YesAllWomen conversation regarding Christopher Michael-Martinez because it focuses on white male privilege and sexism. Obviously, this argument just makes no sense, particularly given the fact that I’m not saying anything specifically about the Asian American victims.

    Re: misogylinity

    Also, I do not think “misogylinity” is going to catch on as a word. Very sorry.

    Probably not, but I’ve been getting some extremely positive reinforcement over Twitter about how it is a necessary, and nicely intuitive, term that belongs in the feminist lexicon. I’d like for it to take off, not due to ego but because there actually ISN’T a word to describe misogylinity, yet it’s phenomenon we’re all familiar with. How is there NOT already a word for it?

  46. @Katie

    Thank you for your comment!

    To the commenter above who said he found the author’s example of masculinity unappealing and was happy being attracted to and pursuing many women- at the risk of putting words in Jenn’s mouth, I don’t think she was implying any problem with that. It’s the idea that masculinity is the single most important part of a man’s identity and that it is defined solely in terms of sexual experience and the number and “beauty” of their partners that is unhealthy.

    Yes, my argument isn’t that there’ something wrong with pursuing women. My argument is that this shouldn’t be the most important characteristic of what makes you “a man”.

  47. Why not ask a half-Asian, like myself?

    I had a discussion with some people on facebook, and all of the points I made, I do not feel like rewriting again, so I will copy and paste and leave some thought for you guys here. I know it is a bit long to read, but since Elliot was half-Asian, and I reached out to him before the killings because I saw his post on a bodybuilding website that I read for fun, and signed up just to tell him that everything was going to be okay. I think that with all the vitriol being spewed between Asian men and women, we really need to get down to the bottom of it, which isn’t anything to do with patriarchy or misogyny, but probably a cyclical pattern where Asian women simply prefer white men’s looks, and this in turn creates animosity from Asian men. Everything else to me is bullshit. I wish, for once, that we’d all start being honest with ourselves because it is the children that have to suffer – particularly if you have boys and they look Asian and cannot understand why their mother, at very least, disliked men that look like them.

    Why doesn’t someone ask the children of the relatively frequent combo of tall white guys and asian women? These relationships are often fully loaded with everything from white racism to heightism. That is, of course, if anyone will listen. But I doubt it. The writing is on the wall and I think our demographic is the one that knows pretty dang well what is going on, politicized or not.

    For example, I question why my mother made a bee-line for a tall redhead; not an Indian man, not a short redhead, not an asian man, not a black man. I am not buying the patriarchy claims as the white males who bullied and tormented me and my brother were surely patriarchal. What I do buy is that either she just wanted me to have an easier life, or that she found asian men to be ugly. Internalized or not, we, as children of these relationships seem to be very keen to this kind of pattern, including when we are excluded from mating choices, even after we were supposedly “upgraded”.

    I’m not going to lie, my life has been supremely easier because I look white. I guess my mother really did do me a favor; I’m doubting she was escaping patriarchy especially when I have to encounter the white-nationalist tripe coming from the men in the white side of my family, the bulk of white often completely forget that I’m mixed.

    It’s one thing to have a preference, it’s another thing to lie about why you do. Just do keep in mind that our sins are passed down onto our children and that no amount of rationalizing it can convince us that the experiences that we endure as half-Asians who range from whitish to completely asian in appearance, are somehow indicative of a fault of patriarchy within ourselves, when it’s nothing more that an albeit racist preference.

    All things being fair, I am attracted to women of all colors. The patterns remain that asian women date white men exclusively, meaning that there is a clear sentiment of superiority; it severely upsets me that in the minds that produced me, I am both superior (boy, he looks white, success!) and inferior – he’s not blonde, blue eyed, so I don’t want him. This has happened to me – at a party once I was approached by an asian girl, who when she found out I was half Chinese, turned around and left. Patriarchy? No. I refuse to buy it.

    If you have a preference, and you feel guilty about it, do NOT lie about it. It hurts me. Just tell the truth.

    It’s right, nobody has the right to police other people’s preferences.

    However, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that being half white, looking white puts me in a lot better position than my brother, who looks almost completely Chinese. Not withstanding arguments that one of us is somehow less patriarchal, misogynist, etc., it is fairly obvious to me that in this world we live in, asian men possess some quality that makes them less attractive. I spent my whole life putting ‘white’ on my dating profiles because I knew I’d be at a disadvantage – not because I was trying to hide my patriarchal side.

    I for one would just begin to appreciate some honesty in the conversation; if society thinks asian men are unattractive, just say so. Don’t paint with a wide brush and say my brother, who is the kindest gentlest soul and because of health issues probably doesn’t even think about his race, is a drum beating patriarch.

    We cannot erase our race. My mother almost did. She’s long been dead so I can’t fathom if she’s happy about this or not. But what I do know is that I am a person of color who passes as white in society and it benefits me IMMENSELY. I don’t know whether I should thank my mother for this or not.

    Everything boils down to biology; I am the product of some kind of insane genetic lottery draw where I don’t look Chinese at all. Yes, it benefits me. Yes, I pass as white even in China. Yes, I get approached by women who want me simply because I am 6’1″, and white. We can talk politics, but I sincerely doubt that’s the reason and I look at everything else thrown into the conversation as rationalization. Similarly I have a hard time believing that my life would be any easier if I were born 5’7″. I don’t, however, appreciate Asian men, Asian women, etc., being painted with a wide brush with the claim of some kind of personal fault – wherein one side me is faulted, whereas the other isn’t. It doesn’t compute.

    I think if we’d all be honest with ourselves, we’d be better off in admitting that there are inherent biases in this world, and the world is unfair; life is hard enough for unattractive and lonely people and I don’t think it’s right to point fingers and say “you’re an ugly _____ist bitch / asshole”. It’s enough that I am worried about having children where they will have to grow up playing out life’s Game of Breeding, which is pretty much just that – an animal game of dice throwing and attractiveness vs. unattractiveness.

    To that end I sure hope my son looks like Hu Bing, so pretty much none of this irrelevancy affects him. I mostly started to worry about this once I realized that there were people like Jenny An in the world, that there are inherent biases against Asian males (for physical reasons), and that I’m going to have kids and that they’re going to look Asian.

    interracial romance isn’t the problem. Intraracial name-calling, demeaning and otherwise white-worshiping when none of our effin’ kids will EVER be able to pass via the Nuremberg laws will have a savage and irreparable effect on our children. That’s my main concern. Source: myself.

    I suffered from self-esteem issues for a long time – and I still do. I thought I should be ashamed to be Asian – and who better to teach me that than a world that I perceived hated me?

    Eh, I’m still not buying sociological / political motives behind mating patterns. That’s like asking why cats have spiked penises. If the bulk of a population acts in a certain way, in a complete vacuum with neither pressure from either side, I’m assuming that white men are on the whole, even in their most average, more attractive than Asian men, which I find patently false and offensive to myself, at least in China, which is filled to the brim with handsome men. But the heart – no, the womb, wants what the womb wants, so I can’t argue with that. But regardless if it’s offensive, it’s clear as daylight to me what the mating patterns are, so yeah, it affects my self esteem.

    I get the feeling some people are uncomfortable with that fact and get all defensive about it; it’s easier to project onto a group of people that you are offending if you vilify them in some way. I think we deep down all know exactly what we do and we need to be honest with ourselves. My father chose my mother because she was an alternative to the extreme leftist present at Columbia when he was there in the 70′s. My mother probably chose my father because he was tall and handsome, with blue eyes, a universally attractive feature.

    Andrew, word.

    If you go on Match.com and say I only want a white partner, you’re a white supremacist, plain and simple; you’e an awful person who will pass on severe issues to your children; you’re rewarding white people simply for being white. Please don’t try to defend this by saying that Asian people are this, that, or this. It’s baloney. Just admit it and say you want whiter kids.

    I said it and I’m not afraid to say it. It is offensive to me that some people do this – as the product of this kind of relationship. I don’t know your motivations but all I can guess is that you want to give your kids a better life, because / and / or, you feel that being white in society is easier, and / or because you think white people are more attractive, which might generally be true, from my understanding as a passer.

    I’ve also considered the idea of either not having kids, or doing something as drastic as having a designer baby because I know for a fact, from my own experience as a mixed race person masquerading as a tall white man, that I have so much privilege in life, in dating, jobs, etc, that I can virtually get away with anything in this world. At the same time I am immune from racism, from the myriad self-haters and the plethora of nasty shit that my children undoubtedly will have to deal with, particularly as boys. Obviously women suffer in life as well, but playing on the white side as an undercover Asian man, yeah, it would suck, and my entire life would be different if I were an Asian man and was constantly demeaned by not only society, but people within the race. I use the story of not even ONCE being called a “chink / gook / slope” in my life, but being denied simply because of KNOWLEDGE of my heritage – as evidence that something is fundamentally wrong.

    Similarly, I chose my wife because my string of relationships before her were insanely stressful and leading nowhere since I couldn’t find commitment from any of the women at my university. Not surprisingly, a Chinese mainland girl agreed to commit. The product of a patriarchal society? A society where women are submissive? Does that mean that American women are non-committal _____________?

  48. @Steven

    Thank you for reading and for your comment!

    As you are committed to the “political uplift of Asian American men, and the dismantling of institutionalized Asian American emasculation”, I think the first step is to condem the misogynistic attitudes of those AAPI males. More importantly, though, is the oft-forgotten next step – to show understanding and love to those who spew such hatred (and I’m not saying the onus is on writers in your position – it’s more than the vast majority of AAPI folks that you are taking the initiative and time to write these articles in the first place).>

    I absolutely agree, and for me, I express my love and support of these men — even misogynists — through my efforts to engage and understand them. It’s not in the post but the reason WHY I can write this post is because I have taken the time over the last decade to approach these misogynists (here and in some of their own blogs), listen to them, ask them to engage me, treat them with respect, and ask for critical and thoughtful debate. I’m not always successful but I have over the years taken the time to interact with these folks as peers. I believe that, for many, giving them a space to be heard can help: that’s why on my blog, I’ve given them full access to express themselves in my comment section, largely unmoderated – and you can see that happening in this comment thread as well. I do my best to engage their ideas and find common ground, and also hope that they will do the same with my writing. I think that is how we, as writers, can help to show love and understanding for AAPI males even those who would respond with misogyny. The purpose of this post was not to brutely dismiss these men altogether, it was to present a perspective to prompt further discussion, particularly among male allies who would argue that this misogyny is “not really a problem”.

    I do not like the misogyny. I will speak out against it. I still see these specific AAPI men (who are a small fraction of the whole) as my brothers, urge them to have space to express themselves respectfully, and will do my part to fight for them when the opportunities arise. I think that’s the responsibility of all AAPI writers who find ourselves with the privilege of having a platform to present our issues.

  49. @Dave

    It’s the fact that they were killed due to their race. It’s the fact that the killer was fueled by a racial bigotry that all Asian men have faced in this country. I find it odd and a bit disturbing that you lack the empathy to understand why Asian men would feel uniquely hurt by the killings.

    You miss my point. I understand completely hat Asian men would feel hurt by the killings, because it is indeed a hate crime against Asian men; again you should come back to the blog because that is the topic of my second post.

    It is also a hate crime against women motivated by misogyny, and has sparked a nationwide conversation about misogyny, rape culture and white privilege. I am sparking a conversation about masculinity and manhood which is highly relevant to this attack, and I simply fail to see why it should be a non-starter (until Friday, as you argue — you wanted me to wait an additional 48 hours, because apparently the 96 hours I waited was insufficient for you), since I am neither making an argument about James Hong, David Wang, and George Chen (who, by the way, I’ve taken pains to name in all comments and in this post; you have not) nor am I attacking all Asian men or something. I’m talking about misogyny, as it is relevant to our community, and as an expression of my pain having seen a man targeting men who share my race AND a a man targeting women who share my gender.

    Do you think it would be appropriate to publish an article about how White women should re-examine their beliefs and address the ways in which they uphold White male supremacy mere days after White women were targeted and killed by a misogynist?

    Depends on what you had to say. If you were saying “she had it coming”, then that essay shouldn’t ever get off the ground. But in general, I don’t think there is any moral basis for self-censorship. If the ideas I have to present are meaningful, than they will be equally meaningful in 48 hours.

    And just to put it out there — women are experiencing violence at the hands of misogynists every minute of every day. Minorities are targeted with violence at the hands of racists every minute of every day. If we were to establish a standardized 7-day waiting period before we could talk about misogyny or racism, we could never have these conversation.

  50. @FuBoIn

    I know what begging the question is. My point is that this:

    the argument that you’re trying to build, that Elliott Rodger is a scion of the Asian American male’s misogyny

    …is not my thesis statement. I am not making this argument at all, and don’t agree with this statement.

    The most over-used and misunderstood accusation of logical fallacy is the strawman. I hate telling people they are using it. In this case though, you actually are building a pretty magnificent strawman.

  51. Three promising Asian men died at the hands of an Asian-hating white supremacist, who identifies himself as a “supreme gentlemen descended from british (white) aristocracy”.

    The world is exposing the vile and overwhelming effects of white entitlement, white patriarchy, white male violence, and white supremacy that underpinned this massacre.

    However, your article segues into the nebulous evil Asian patriarchy of misogyny without a hint of irony or an iota of respect for the deceased.

    You deserve better than this my Asian bros. May you party eternally in peace.

  52. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, between 1998 and 2002:

    Of the almost 3.5 million violent crimes committed against family members, 49% of these were crimes against spouses.
    84% of spouse abuse victims were females, and 86% of victims of dating partner abuse at were female.
    Males were 83% of spouse murderers and 75% of dating partner murderers
    50% of offenders in state prison for spousal abuse had killed their victims. Wives were more likely than husbands to be killed by their spouses: wives were about half of all spouses in the population in 2002, but 81% of all persons killed by their spouse.

    If you are a woman, you are more likely to be killed by your (ex)boyfriend or (ex)husband.

  53. FYI David Choe’s podcast does not “intend to subvert Asian American emasculation through real or manufactured tales of sexual conquest”. There is no ulterior motive for him putting out a regular podcast, he just does it because to him it’s entertaining. It’s presumptuous of you to assume just because he’s an Asian male and talks about his “sexual conquests” it’s because he’s compensating for being emasculated by the mainstream media. Try actually listening to an episode. I recommend starting with 001.

  54. Jenn,

    I enjoyed your post and welcome the discussion, but as an AAM I must confess that I agree with some of the more argumentative replies on here.

    For a discourse concerning intersectionality, it should be glaringly obvious to you that there is a profound arrogance in an AAF feminist attempting to redefine masculinity.

    As you stated, you may have coined a new term – ‘misogylinity – masculinity defined by sexual conquest’ – but it’s an old concept. I don’t agree that it’s inherently racist nor even heterosexist these days. Straight men have used sexual conquest as a measure of virility/achievement throughout history across the globe. I’m no anthropologist but I posit this stems from the perceived and actual benefit of producing many offspring in agricultural societies. I agree there are terribly unfortunate misogynistic underpinnings to this idea, and while related, it’s a separate topic in itself. But even in our current ‘modern American’ culture one could argue (by removing the word masculinity from your definition) that sexual conquest remains a yardstick of achievement for many segments of society and has been embraced not only by men, Asian American men, but by members of the non-hetero community, and progressive females as well. There is a reason our culture as a whole stubbornly clings to this idea. Achievement defined by sexual conquest is merely a realization of perceived attractiveness of a potential mate. It encompasses far more than just masculine ideals and is too far engrained to be eliminated.

    Examining your friend Snoopy’s definition of masculinity reveals instructions on how to be a respectable human being: honour, self-respect, drive, the creation of a personal moral code and living by those principles, friendship, respect, and love. C’mon, this sounds like it was ripped straight from aisles of the self-help section. I only spot 3 specific character traits traditionally attributed to masculinity: protectiveness of those one loves, self-confidence, assertiveness. These are the traits that, when improperly interpreted and applied, can result in violent outbursts.

    Your suggestion of separating sexuality from masculinity (and femininity) is wishful thinking at best and utterly absurd at worst. Sexuality is core to the definition of each. Some may appreciate your attempt to create a better society, but in reality your suggestions only benefit the feminist agenda by cherry picking issues – singling out an aspect of culture which has historically had a negative impact on women – while ignoring the plethora of other pertinent issues in a realistic manner (mental health? gun control? parenting?) . People, no matter what gender , orientation, race, or class, will always seek to accumulate notches in their bedpost because we are lustful and immodest. It’s human nature magnified by western capitalism, but it’s reality.
    As for Asian American masculinity in particular, the suggestion of rejecting sexual conquest and essentially removing sexuality in order to solve the problem of emasculation seems truly ironic and can only be self serving. The emasculation of Asian men in America was created by and will be resolved through media portrayal , it’s as simple as that. Please stop trying to redefine others!

  55. I think this article sheds light on an important question, and raises a discussion that we need to have. Thank you for writing this, and for the concept of “misogylinity”, and for helping me, now and in the future, examine my own ingrained beliefs on masculinity.

    However, I think the reference to Elliot Rodger’s half-Asianness really detract from the point, and rather disgusting. I honestly believe, after having read his manifesto, that his biracial identity is fairly tangential to his fucked-up words and actions. But the post latches onto it, and there is an implied connection (why else mention it?) with the main point of the article, namely the prevalence of toxic “misogylinity” in the Asian American community. Because of this, it seems (to me) that the article is implicitly using the half-Asianness of Elliot Rodgers to explain his behavior, trying to shoehorn the tragic events at UCSB into a narrative that is mostly based on a racial stereotype: Asian-American man is troubled by his identity, doesn’t have any success with women, and because of this, turns bitter and misogynistic — which is actually just the kind of how-many-people-has-he-slept-with measure of worth that the (much more well-written) later sections rallies against.

    This is why, at least on a first reading, I could’t shake away the feeling of a rascist undertone to the article — that men of Asian heritage, ipso facto, are more likely to be misogynistic, and indeed turn out to be mass murderers. I realize that the author doesn’t mean it that way, but that’s how it came across to me.

    To my fellow Asian American men: If you are disgusted by this article, as I first was, I actually encourage you to read it again. This time, ignore everything about Elliot Rodger, and just read what’s left. I found that the tone of the article completely changed, and that the parts that are left form a well-written and illuminating highlight of a real problem, that we all need to be aware of.

  56. A really well thought out article, if not difficult to read because it hits so many key points about growing up as an Asian/Asian-male in the US.

    I only realized that the killer was a hapa after seeing other bloggers mention it but this is the first entry that looks into what that actually means for his mindset. Even before reading this, I thought he was pathetic in the actual meaning of the word; so needy as to blame everyone else for his shortcomings rather than deal with his actual shortcomings.

    As a very (very) nerdy but proud Asian-American male – and fellow Cornellian (!) – your quote from The Good Men project is spot-on. It essentially says what I tell people all the time when giving dating advice: Don’t be yourself, be the best version of yourself.

    We all can’t be Daniel Dae Kims but we can try to be the best version of ourselves as possible.

    Finally, as a Chinese man married to a white woman, I feel the vitriol that Asian-American women are subjected to when married to white men is particularly bitter when coming from Asian-American males – I’m ashamed to say that I thought similar things when I was in my teens and 20s. Asian-American women seem to get it on all sides, both on sex and on race.

    FYI – and please feel free to delete this from my comment as I blog also and often write so quickly as to have tons of grammatical errors – it should be “principal” not “principle” for Christopher Michael-Martinez.

  57. You cannot deny, that when men of another race have relationships and children with women of your race – at the expense of your men – that there is no conflict. I refuse to believe that any group of men of whatever race would be happy if 40% of their race’s women were with other race’s men, to the detriment of themselves. I often hear white men who are pissed off when they see a white girl with a black man, or latino. They know that one less “in the field” is one less for them, and an ever increasing pressure on the “free” women left.

    Men – like women – like Rodger – want love and affection. They want children to raise up and call their own. They want a future that they could share with someone. When you are constantly seeing women of all races reject you, and deny you that possibiity, whilst other men are able to have multiple relationships with ease, then you are seeing your own extinction in slow motion.

    With Asian American men this is a real concern. No other race demographic has so many people marrying outside their race. Not even black men. And biologically, women who are “not wanted” are still able to have children – through one night stands, through IVF. Not ideal, but you come across many single mothers who are able to share their love with their offspring. This is not a possibility for men, as, of course , women are the ones who bear children. So when you see a mass exodous of a race’s women to another – and, through media, social conditioning etc -not even consider men of their own race – well what do you expect? Discontent, anger. Because they won’t be able to share, to love, to have children, to be in relationships.

    For you to write this article is essentially demonising asian men more – further pushing them as social outcasts, losers, and thus resigning them to extinction. Discounting that three asian men actually died is rubbing salt into an already large wound.

  58. “I do not claim that the behaviour seen here comes from all or even most Asian American men. It’s not all (or even most) Asian American men, and I am thankful for that.”

    I can see where you’re coming from for most of this post and agree with a good bit of it. But the wording of this line in particular just rubs me the wrong way for some reason. Substitute the word “women” for “men” and maybe you can understand why. In fact, why don’t you substitute any random minority group for “Asian American men” – African Americans, gays, etc…

    I get that you wanted to make it flow with the hashtag, but there was a better way to say that.

  59. @Pzed

    But the wording of this line in particular just rubs me the wrong way for some reason.

    I’m sorry that the wording has rubbed you the wrong way, but I don’t know that I understand why. The line was included as a specific and explicit attempt to combat what I was sure was going to be the “wrong” reading of this post as an indictment of Asian American men as a whole. The point of the line (and the post) is not to ascribe misogyny to Asian American-ness in general; it was to say that there are men in our community who use their oppression — which is profound and should not be understated — to rationalize misogyny by embracing a larger flawed definition of masculinity, what I’m terming misogylinity.

    There are misogynists who are in fact Asian American, and who furthermore do use their racial identity (and the bias experienced therein) as a pass for their sexism, requiring an intersectional look at their particular brand of thinking. This post endeavours to take a careful look at the link between Asian American masculinity, in general, and how it can in this sub-culture lead to specific misogyny. It is, in essence, looking at an institutionalized Asian American brand of sexism, which rationalizes the language, in the way that it is presented.

    And yes, there was also a structural desire to make it flow with the hashtag.

  60. I agree with the other posts stating that there are two separate issues at play here. AAM misogyny, insofar as it exists in a subset of AAMs, is different than the misogyny of Elliott Rodger. You can write about both, but trying to link the two is incredibly dubious, especially if you actually read Elliott’s own thoughts.

    I applaud you for trying to address this issue, but there is an incredible lack of tact, and frankly a bit of tragedy-exploitation in trying to use Rodgers and his actions in order to bring attention to a dialogue on a completely separate issue.

    White supremacist misogyny and Asian American misogyny, both being misogynist worldviews doesn’t provide a strong enough link to justify trying to bring condescending and grandstanding didactics to an issue in which Asian American men were killed ALONGSIDE women.

  61. @Anonymous (from approximately 3 hours ago)

    The problem is not that Asian American women marry outside their race. They’re not “our” women, they don’t belong to us. You seem to be saying that you are, by virtue of your Asianness, automatically entitled to women of your own race, and frankly, I’m disgusted by your whole comment.

    The actual problem is that as Asian American men, we are seen as non-sexual entities, and therefore not desirable for a sexual relationship, by Asians and non-Asians alike. The fact that Asian American women date and marry outside their race is quite possibly, to some extent, an effect of this, but is not at all the root cause. Instead of blaming Asian American women, as if they have some special duty to date us, we should try to fight the actual stereotypes.

  62. I am a white male. I appreciated this article and I wanted you to know that you are being heard by some sympathetic white males even if many of the commenters from my demographic are rude and uncouth. If all of your work is of this caliber then you really have something to be proud of and i look forward to reading more of your articles.
    Thank you and keep it up!

  63. @Alex I never said that Asian women were to blame, no person should “have” to go with someone, and for you to turn my comment into such a portrayal is ignoring the whole comment.

    But when asian women are 30-35% more likely to marry interracially (and dating wise that is even more) than every other race demographic, including black men (the one group that most assume to be popular interracially), of course you will have men being disgruntled of this. We are men. We do not like competition, we do not want to die alone without descendants. To see asian men being flat out denied a chance with women, when other men are able to be with their own and our women (NOTE: when I say “our”, it is NOT in the possessive sense, just by the same race), asian men have every right to feel hard done by. And to equate it to a solely asian men thing is incredibly misleading – I have come across a few amwf couples, and they also speak of hostility from white men. And this is without the huge disparity.

    You are assuming that the stereotyping (which I agree with) and “blaming” asian women is not linked. In fact by saying this you are essentially saying that asian women aren’t part of society…., because what society do we speak of, that sees us as asexual? Are asian women not part of that? And as women who share the same race, surely they would be in a better position to understand the problems we face as a minority in this country? That is why asian men “blame” asian women, moreso than other women. But of course, many women of all races see us in the same light too.

    Also a crucial distinction that the OP fails to recognise; for all Rodger’s talk of being rejected by women – he never actually engaged in conversation with them. Not once. Unless he skipped something in his 140 page manifesto. The feeling of rejection is self inflicted, because he never actually exposed himself to women in a social capacity. I suppose his autism had something to do with this.

    Now compare and contrast this with asian men who have “put themselves out there”. They go out and chat to girls, they’ve signed up to online dating, join clubs etc. and still are not seen in a sexual capacity.

    It is also worth pointing out that for all the author’s stance on rejecting the american definition of masculinity i.e. jocks – she is very much a rarity. If that was not the case, we would not be having this discussion, and asian men would have nothing to be concerned about relationships wise.

  64. Jenn,

    The figurative gymnastics you’re performing in order to sidestep the fundamental issue with this piece is frankly staggering. Everything you’ve written in your piece:

    >”To express oneself as an Asian American woman and self-identified feminist is to expose ourselves to overt misogyny and misogylinity so deeply toxic as to remind of Elliot Rodger’s disturbed manifesto, yet so commonplace as to become routine, and furthermore so invisible as to go either completely unchallenged or otherwise totally dismissed – and therefore implicitly condoned – by far too many of our Asian American male allies.”

    indicates that you believe that there is somehow an implicit or explicit support, approval, or association between misogyny, Asian American men, and Elliot Rodgers. My initial grievance with your piece was the logical inconsistency of your argumentation, on purely dialectic grounds. Now, however, in response to your numerous comments trying to distance yourself from your own writing:

    >”I specifically say Elliot Rodger’s violence is NOT something Asian American men would condone.”

    And then contradicting yourself later:

    >”You missed the middle part of the post which asserted that Asian American men embrace misogylinity, which is a universal and flawed definition of masculinity.”

    >”The point of the line (and the post) is not to ascribe misogyny to Asian American-ness in general; it was to say that there are men in our community who use their oppression — which is profound and should not be understated — to rationalize misogyny by embracing a larger flawed definition of masculinity, what I’m terming misogylinity.”

    All I can say is that you may want to take a look in the mirror and analyse a bit of your own worldview. It is very convenient to use a person’s race or sex as an entry point into their soul, and extract meaning from ethereal patters that may or may not exist, but in many ways the way we choose to look at tragedy says as much about the person looking upon the tragedy than the person who perpetrated the tragedy itself. Some will see the mental health background of Rodger and see the lack of support for mental health services, others will see the use of guns and see the lack of strict gun control, some will see the racism and sexism of his writing and acknowledge the issues of racism and sexism in our society against Asians and women. Some will bend over backwards trying to use Rodger’s biraciality to ascribe some kind of racial flaw to him and anyone who looks like him.

    Like others have said, the people who suffered, suffered as a result of a combination of racism and sexism, and Elliot Rodger saw in Asian males things that they themselves never ascribed to themselves. Elliot saw Asian males as unworthy of romantic relationships, ugly, etc, and he felt that his British background gave him sexual ownership of women, but just because the Asian American men in his life did not explicitly tell him that they do indeed consider themselves worthy of romantic relationships, that they don’t see themselves as ugly, that they don’t condone his sexist attitudes, does not mean that they were somehow complicit, condoning, or in any way supportive of his worldview.

    And before you try to sidestep the issue again, let me be clear that the “not all Asian men” or “too many Asian men” lines are an incredible cop-out of ownership of your own viewpoints. You’ve written on this at length (at times contradicting yourself), but if you truly believe there is a misogynistic toxicity about Asian American men or even a majority of Asian American men, then you should own it, and not try to hide behind vague and nebulous ascriptions of cultural viewpoints that may or may not have any prevalence at all. Another poster asked me how I know that Asian American misogynists like Choe and J Tran (whom I had to google) are less influential and culturally credible in the realm of Asian American male masculinity than the likes of Jeremy Lin and Steven Yeun, and a few years ago I would only be able to provide anecdotal evidence from my own viewpoint and the viewpoint of the Asian American men whom I know. Thankfully we have a fairly approximate measure of a person’s influence thanks to social media and their tabulation of followers. Obviously a crude metric, but infinitely better than completely unfounded and indefensible lines like “too many” and “not all but some.”

    Person A: 1,000 followers
    Person B: 46,500 followers
    Person C: 508,000 followers
    Person D: 1,260,000 followers

    Note that person A in this situation is the supposed figurehead of a movement and worldview in the Asian American cultural sphere, and is massively influential in shaping the Asian American self-conceptualization. Note that person B is supposedly a massive misogynist that is broadcasting a message of supporting and condoning rape. Note that neither of these two supposed thought leaders in the Asian American male community, combined, have even half (barely a 10th) of the followers of the third person in the list. Note that person A in this case has fewer followers than my high school principal. Note that person C has eschewed the benefits of celebrity and is publicly known for maintaining his relationship with his pre-fame girlfriend. Note that person D, the largest figure in the group, has publicly and privately supported numerous women’s advocacy and advancement programs through both active participation and the use of his celebrity to bring awareness.

    The enumerated people, in order, are JT Tran, David Choe, Steven Yeun, and Jeremy Lin.

    Now, I can tell you that as an Asian American man, I’ve never heard of JT Tran before coming to this post, that I only knew David Choe as the guy who became rich from Facebook, that I like Steven Yeun for the sole fact that he is the most visible and non-joke AAM on TV, that Jeremy Lin is a walking role model for young AAMs everywhere, and that most Asian American men share my worldview. I could tell you this, but for you to believe me, to believe what I wrote earlier that the majority of Asian men follow the mold of Lin and Yeun than they follow the mold of Choe and Tran, that they are not misogynists, that they share the same frustrations with sexism and racism that you do, but that would require you to see past my race and my sex and see something in me other than the worst of the kind of people who look like me. It would require that you actually look at some evidence and read and listen to voices that don’t conform to your worldview. It would require some introspection about why your own worldview leads you too see things in people that they clearly (and in written form) are telling you are not there.

    Again, you could write, as you’ve done numerous time before, and say that you’re not trying to make a sexist, racist argument against Asian American men, but please look at your own writing, especially the ones I’ve quoted, and maybe look in the mirror and do some self reflection before responding and promoting this kind of thing, especially in the charged aftermath of a tragedy, when people are more willing to draw conclusions and cast blame than they are willing to understand.

  65. Edited!

    I agree with Steven. Anger, violence, and hostility stems from pain. This hurt and angry group of asian men are trying to figure out how to be successful in a society that has misunderstood and marginalized them. They’re crying out for help. If more people acknowledged their struggle and openly sympathized with them, it would go a long way towards helping them heal. I’m all for this. Having more male asian role models in mainstream media would also make a huge difference. Maybe then Elliot Rodger would have chosen to identify more with his asian side.

    At the same time, this hostile group of asian men eventually have to stop feeling sorry for themselves and lashing out at people they perceive to have slighted or betrayed them. Take ownership of your own life. Do something constructive with that pain. Life isn’t going to be fair.

    I read Elliot Rodger’s manifesto too. The moment he started saying he needed to take the act of God and punish everyone so they feel the same pain as him was the end.

  66. @Crystal,

    Since you mentioned you had edited your response, and I saw a duplicate (didn’t catch where the edits were), I trashed your first one. Please let me know if you want to recover it for any reason!

    Thanks for reading and for sharing your thoughts! I basically totally agree with you — we need to be sympathetic and understand that rage comes from pain. Rodger’s pain is self-evident in his manifesto.

    But the question also is what we are willing to do with that pain, and how much we allow that pain to justify immoral outlooks and acts. Elliot Rodger took it to a far, indefensible, extreme obviously. But, I’m hoping to take a moment to think about the extent to which all of us — to a far lesser extent than Elliot Rodger of course — use pain as a bad justification for rage and oppression of others.

    @FuBoIn

    I see your comment. I will respond in a moment, but I do want to let you know that your rising condescension level is unappreciated, and is undermining this conversation, as it is establishing a particularly combative tone. I suggest you take it down a notch. You have been erecting a pretty elaborate strawman for awhile now, and while it is very nice and pretty, the reason I haven’t been engaging you is because, quite frankly, you’re arguing against a straw man. As I said in my last post, I don’t believe Elliot Rodger was “a scion of Asian American masculinity”, nor do I argue that point anywhere in the post.

    If you didn’t read or understand my points, that’s one thing. I’m happy to help you with the concepts presented herein. But, in asking for that help, it doesn’t hurt to be respectful.

  67. @Anonymous

    I agree with you that there is a problem. Asian American are part of society, and part of the problem. They, being human, are not impervious to the influence of the racial stereotypes of the society around them, and probably hold many of the negative view of us that the rest of society promotes.

    But they are but a very small part of the problem, and the fact that they marry other races is an even smaller part of the problem still. It is the way you’re zeroing in on this facet of the problem that gives me the impression that you’re holding Asian American women, and their personal romantic choices, at fault for a problem where they really aren’t to blame.

    Personal choices don’t, of course, exist in a vacuum, and should be examined. And as you say, Asian American women are in a better position to understand the struggles we face, and should perhaps therefore hold themselves to a higher standard.

    But, and I think this is where our opinions differ: I don’t think Asian women marrying white men are inherently more damaging and hurtful than if Hispanic women or black women or white women or whatever marry white men. I especially object to this part of your first comment:

    I refuse to believe that any group of men of whatever race would be happy if 40% of their race’s women were with other race’s men, to the detriment of themselves. I often hear white men who are pissed off when they see a white girl with a black man, or latino. They know that one less “in the field” is one less for them, and an ever increasing pressure on the “free” women left.

    The whole quote seems to be based on the racist and misogynistic premise that men of one race should have “first dibs” on “their” women. Why else would Asian American women marrying someone not Asian American be more of a problem than other women marrying someone not Asian American?

    I, for one, would be perfectly happy, if 40% of my race’s women were with other races’ men, if other races’ women were with us in corresponding numbers, or at least if they weren’t automatically shunning us because of our race. An Asian woman being with, say, a white man does not mean there is “one less for me” — and frankly, that language is rather objectifying — no more than if a white woman or a black woman was with the white man. Quite to the contrary, doesn’t it also mean that one white man was taken “out of the competition”?

    Again, Asian American women marrying interracially is not the problem. It is a symptom, perhaps, and a very small one at that, so let’s not make it a central part of the discussion.

    As for Elliot Rodger, I completely agree with you that he was not your typical Asian American man. And to insinuate, as the author seems to do, that his actions have something to do with his racial identity, is disingenuous and insulting.

  68. I think the greatest form of respect one can pay to an argument is to read it thoroughly, make the sincerest effort possible to understand the argument, and provide constructive criticism that deals with the actual tools of rhetoric. Note that at every instance that I’ve chosen to respond, I did not choose to attack the tone of your piece(“your rising condescension level is unappreciated, and is undermining this conversation, as it is establishing a particularly combative tone…”), nor did I choose to dismiss your argument out of hand (“You have been erecting a pretty elaborate strawman for awhile now, and while it is very nice and pretty…”), nor did I choose to present my argument from a didactic, hierarchical perspective (“I’m happy to help you with the concepts presented herein. But, in asking for that help…”).

    The truth of the matter is that I’m just a regular internet user who’s only taken English 101 and even from my layman’s perspective, I can see the cracks in the foundation of your argument and the contradictions in your responses to criticism. Note that in every one of my responses, I’ve never taken any stance regarding you as an individual, other than to ask for your consideration and introspection, and that my main criticisms were directed more at the methodology and rhetorical technique of *how* you crafted your argument, rather than dismissing your argument out of hand.

    Again, you can continue to respond in phrases, “stawman,” “very nice and pretty,” but the sum the responses I’ve received from your end have been frankly terse and dismissive.

    I feel conflicted in responding in this way, but I feel the need again to help define what exactly a strawman is. It is not, as you seem to be suggesting, a logical fallacy in which a person argues a subset of the main argument, as I am doing concerning the parts in which you try to make a link between Asian American men and Elliot Rodger, but it is in fact a logical fallacy when a person brings up an entirely different issue to distract from the true issue at hand. “Linking Elliott Rodger to the greater Asian American community as you do in quote A, B, and C in your piece is disingenuous…” is not a strawman, “Linking Rodgers to the greater Asian American community as you do in quote A, B, C is interesting, but I think the real issue is the lack of consideration for the risks that police officers face in the line of duty…” is a strawman.

    Again, I give you the benefit of the doubt, but when I specifically quote both your writing and your responses to point out their inconsistency and contradictions, when I materially deal with the very things that you’ve devoted to print, it cannot, without great mental leaps and wrangling, be considered a strawman. I’ve explicitly quoted the following:

    >”To express oneself as an Asian American woman and self-identified feminist is to expose ourselves to overt misogyny and misogylinity so deeply toxic as to remind of Elliot Rodger’s disturbed manifesto, yet so commonplace as to become routine, and furthermore so invisible as to go either completely unchallenged or otherwise totally dismissed – and therefore implicitly condoned – by far too many of our Asian American male allies.”

    >”You missed the middle part of the post which asserted that Asian American men embrace misogylinity, which is a universal and flawed definition of masculinity.”

    >”The point of the line (and the post) is not to ascribe misogyny to Asian American-ness in general; it was to say that there are men in our community who use their oppression — which is profound and should not be understated — to rationalize misogyny by embracing a larger flawed definition of masculinity, what I’m terming misogylinity.”

    and pointed out how they contradict the following:

    >”I specifically say Elliot Rodger’s violence is NOT something Asian American men would condone.”

    You yourself have written, and I’ve quoted, the relevant sections of your writing in which you try to make the link; and as I’ve said previously, I’ve never refuted the existence of misogyny in Elliot, the deplorable actions of online misogynists, or the pickup subculture that some AAMs subsribe to, I am only saying that the commonalities between these groups does not, should not, and should not be seen to extend substantively to any corp of the Asian American male community, and your writing, which you seem to be increasingly backing down from, insinuating to the contrary, is the problem.

    When someone explicitly deals with the contradictions and inconsistencies of a person’s writing, and uses the writing itself and the common building blocks of rhetoric and logic to explain why there is a problem with the foundations, assumptions, and argumentation of the writing, I sincerely hope you see that this is in fact not a strawman.

  69. Great article and thank you for examining this tragedy. I felt many of the same things, but you’ve helped me understand it much better. As a Native American woman online, I am struck by how very few men online make such awful comments to me. And actually, not a single Native man has said such things to me. Mostly entirely I’ve been attacked on the issues not my sex. It make me wonder why.

  70. @foboin

    Thank you for taking the time to explain your viewpoint. As an AAPI male, you’ve said everything I wanted to say and more. I hope people who came here from other sites like I did from twitter take the time to scroll down and read your comments.

  71. A guy who identifies with his white side and shuns his Asian side while making racist comments about Asian men on the internet while specifically claiming he should be entitled to white women because of him being half white, who then finally goes on to actually KILL three ASIAN-AMERICAN men….


    … and your response is to write a an article about Asian male misogyny? I know all the closet racist internet trolls are giving your props in the comments…but I and many others still think this is one of the sickest things that has been written about this tragedy and is a textbook example of an Asian women exploiting the hatred against Asian men for her own selfish means.

  72. So basically, just days after three Asian-american males were murdered, you saw this as an opportunity to speak out about how Asian-american males have wronged YOU?

    The fact that you actually felt that gubbler’s blatantly racist and offensive comment was at all acceptable is very telling. Did you miss the part where he called the murder victims geeks and wusses? But I guess their lives aren’t that important when you’re using a tragedy to prove a point. There’s just absolutely no sense of remorse or respect for the dead.

  73. @FuBoIn

    Right, because the first sentence of your last comment, which was:

    The figurative gymnastics you’re performing in order to sidestep the fundamental issue with this piece is frankly staggering.

    … is not the least bit condescending or dismissive. Before that, you felt the need to explain to me what “begging the question” meant, as if I were unfamiliar with basic argumentation. Those are quite literally the first two sentences of your last two comments; you open with two extremely condescending sentences.

    Like I said, if you want to have a constructive debate on your points, than I suggest you take your patronizing attitude down a notch.

  74. @Jenn

    Question: Why do you hold David Choe as an example of reactionist Asian male misogyny?

    What makes you think his misogyny has anything to do with him overcompensating as an AA man as opposed to the fact that he’s simply a jerk who found wealth at a very young age through his Facebook stock?

  75. @Will

    I believe that David Choe is someone who is trying to make an Asian American Howard Stern show. How conscious he is of emasculation and stereotyping (vs just wanting to prove how big of a player he is) is unclear, but he’s certainly aware enough that he makes a few comments about Asian American masculinity on the episode I watched (it was the “rape” episode, but in response to someone earlier who suggest I actually watch a full ep of DVD/ASA, I did actually watched the full ep that includes that segment at the end). It’s actually the preamble to that segment — a brief exchange about Asian American emasculation stereotypes.

    More to the point, also, is the makeup of the rest of the podcast. David Choe is an Asian American man who got a lot of wealth early on through Facebook stock; the other podcasters (who are all Asian American) aren’t. The entire show is focused at Asian American lifestyle, and it’s clearly intended to be a shock jock sexual show. When you take all that into consideration with the likely demographic for such a show, it’s hard to say the show has nothing to do with society’s larger anti-Asian male stereotypes.

  76. This article has been very demeaning to the three Asian American men who have lost their lives due to racist ideals and more importantly, mental illness. Misogyny absolutely has no racial or class bounds and is the same across all classifications of humans. For you, the author of this article, to point out that Asian Americans, albeit the men, can learn from this is that there are some underlying bias that you have, unfortunately.

    Listing all the similarities that “Like [name omitted], these Asian American men…” is offensive because this man had a mental illness, Asperger’s was it?, for most of his life. His exotic sense of entitlement was far beyond any typical Asian American attitudes towards women, at least among the people I associate myself with. What you are saying here is that these men have a mental illness to go as far as committing the acts of what had happened in Isla Vista? Perhaps it can and I hope it doesn’t, but there is a defining line with attitudes that people have versus what was going on in the killer’s mind to act it out. To compare him to a specific population [some Asian American men, but not all] is demeaning in its own right to those who are struggling with some mental disability and it should be addressed cautiously, not to be shamed at or stoned.

    What really needs to be addressed and what we, not just Asian Americans, can learn about this tragedy is about addressing the mental illness and preventing it from happening. And also to change our societal values as Americans and how we treat other as human beings.

  77. @Akamai

    this man had a mental illness, Asperger’s was it?, for most of his life.

    The report that Elliot Rodger had Asperger’s was wrong, and Asperger’s and other autism spectrum disorders are not typically associated with violence anyways. If he had any other mental illness, it is either undiagnosed or unreported. So any discussion about mental illness contributing to Rodger’s heinous act is as much speculative as is a conversation about misogyny.

    It’s also highly irresponsible to link violence with mental illness directly, and is the major thrust of the argument being made this week by those blogging from the mental health community.

    Misogyny absolutely has no racial or class bounds and is the same across all classifications of humans.

    Exactly.

    Asian Americans very rarely explore our own culpability in larger misogyny, masculinity, and what I term misogylinity. I did not politicize this tragedy — that happened in the 96 hours that happened before I published my post, which is why my post includes phrases like “if we are determined to learn something from the shooting”. However, since the nation was intent on having this conversation, I think this is the conversation our community can, should, and must have.

    is demeaning in its own right to those who are struggling with some mental disability and it should be addressed cautiously, not to be shamed at or stoned.

    Who is shaming people with mental illness?

    No one thing made Elliot Rodger a killer. His (undiagnosed) mental illness no more or less caused him to randomly attack his neighbours than his racism, his sexism, his misogyny or his classism. He was a conflation of many of society’s ills. For the last week, writers have been taking pieces the shooting and parsing them, in hopes of prompting larger necessary conversations about each of these individual social ills; we ALL do so with the understanding that they are all parts of a larger whole. If you wanted a post that wrote about the whole of the incident, that post would be the length of a book.

    If you want to talk about mental illness in the context of this incident, Ravi Chandra takes on that angle in the piece he wrote that I link above.

    If you want to talk about mental illness in the Asian American community, here’s my archives on the subject: http://reappropriate.co/?tag=depression

  78. i appreciate the article and appreciate Jenn thinking outside the box since no event is ever easy to understand full root cause. this article did make me think about the asian american male mindset around certain areas and how society could be allowing this kind of mindset to perpetuate.

    1st off, i want to preface that my thoughts are specific to my own experiences and my small sample set. with my experience, i don’t think that this is isolated to asian men. i think there is a general culture of tying masculinity to sexual conquests (women would probably question a virgin guy as well). and when i do i witness asian men saying what jenn talks about here, I also know the context of why it was said and so it’s hard for me to really tie what would be otherwise common thoughts to this heinous act.

    so @FuBoln – i do somewhat agree with your overall takeaway on this that there are parts that are a stretch conclusion and sometimes the stretch can be potentially misinterpreted as jenn’s own bias/experience..and so you may discredit the full article. but on the other hand, i actually don’t mind some of the stretch. because the point of the article is for jenn to communicate her observations (and her bias is implied…for everyone else to pick at based on their bias).

    so I guess my only suggestion to jenn is to let certain small things go and continue with her vision/mission. there will be tons of inaccuracies and misunderstandings as we will never be able to port our thoughts to anyone else’s thoughts and our experiences to someone else’s database of experiences. don’t let that sidetrack you as i love her way of pushing the envelope in challenging everyone to consider things outside of mainstream thoughts.

    [just fyi - I am an asian american woman raised in the south (texas) who many may claim that i am somewhat of a feminist due to my everyday mission (trying to help penetrate the oil and gas world with acceptance of asian woman leaders for the past 15 yrs!). so what i see somewhat overlaps but is somewhat different slice of the world here. ;) ]

  79. The major difference between JT Tran and David Choe on one hand, and Steven Yeun and Jeremy Lin on the other, is popularity. Neither Tran or Choe appear on nationally broadcast television. FuBoin, your assertion that Yeun and Lin’s popularity (as determined by Twitter followers) imply a preference for socially affirmative, traditionally wholesome masculinity among Asian American men cannot find evidence amid social media support.

    The only real test of this would be to locate a Asian American male celebrity who expressed Tran and Choe’s toxic masculinity. The abysmal lack of Asian American celebrity diversity makes that comparison impossible today; there’s no Chinese American Floyd Mayweather, no Japanese American Tommy Lee, not even a Korean American answer to Zac Efron. Given this – we really can’t tell from celebrities how pervasive ‘misogylinity’ may be among Asian American men.

    I emphasize this point because many of the comments here reject Jenn’s premise that Elliot Rodger and some Asian American male opponents of her feminist writing seek the same ‘misogylinist’ ideal, where they expect certain women to respond to their sexual advances and exhibit anger when those women reject them socially. The argument Jenn’s detractors repeat in this comment thread is that it’s both in poor taste and logically flawed to consider Rodger’s crazy in any way associated with the misogyny of some Asian American men.

    On this point, I have to ask – how do these detractors explain the quotes in the article? When Asian American women are derided as ‘self-hating sellout whores’ for the crime of dating interracially, how exactly do people expect Asian American feminists like Jenn to respond? Several people died because of Elliot Rodger, including three bright Asian American men. No one’s forgotten this.

    But when one reads Rodger’s 140-plus page perspective and finds several statements that parrot the same sexist vitriol one’s received for over a decade on your feminist site, when that sexist vitriol parallels the anti-woman crazy other Asian American feminist women have consistently endured since antiquity from within the community, it’s damn near impossible to avoid the inconvenient truth Jenn wrote above.

    No one said anyone had to like this article. But those who disagree owe this conversation their response to Asian American feminists like Jenn who are consistently told they disrespect their parents and degrade themselves by dating people like me. If they read Elliot Rodger and see uncanny resemblances to the evil some Asian American men impose on their lives, can you really blame them?

  80. Thank you Jenn for this very insightful piece. I am a black middle aged female and can certainly appreciate much of what you have written because on the other spectrum black men in America tend to be portrayed by the media, in movies, etc as hyper-sexed and misogynistic towards black women. Almost every day we are bombarded with negative images of black men and women. It’s as if the media is only focused on all things negative all the time without ever really put things into their proper context. This in turn fuels so much ignorance and eventually many of our social issues at large in this country. The media is not the ultimate culprit but certainly carries all of these negative images and messages across a wide geographical space. And, sometimes we as people of color do contribute to these negative images while many more of us constantly try to continue to keep ourselves and our communities uplifted and positive.

    But I digress a bit. There are so many reasons why this young man killed so many people: misogyny, immaturity, a sense of entitlement, class, self-hatred, race and other socio-economic factors which most likely contributed to his mental illness. It wasn’t just one thing, it was many and yes, I agree, the prominent factors really focus on his hatred of women which pushed him to the point of no return.

    I am so sad for the innocent lives that were taken, both male and female. It was not called for but it happened. Collectively as a country, we have got to do a better job of having strong, open as well as honest dialogue with each other and follow up it up with solutions. But we have to take small steps. Talking and being civil are always a good start. I think you did an excellent job with your opinion and I do not feel like you were attacking Asian men. If anything, it opened up my eyes to the plight of many Asian American men and that it is most likely shared across other groups. Everyone in this world is stigmatized by something or many things, your piece just brought it a little bit closer to home for me.

    Again, thanks for the insight.

  81. Jlamb – Imagine if a half-white, half black guy who i had previously made racist comments against black men and who chooses to identify with his white side while being ashamed of his black side went on to kill 3 black guys. Then imagine if a black woman went on to exploit this tragedy by using these events to concoct a shameful article blaming it on black misogyny?. How would you feel about that?

    I mean are you really so stupid as to not see what this is? You’re obviously the same as jenn in that you are using this tragedy to try and settle some petty grudge you have with Asian men, just like all the other non-Asian male trolls that have come out of the woodwork to pat her on the back for her doing their work for them.

    These types of articles are written to provide cover for angry Asian women and non-Asian men to reinforce racist stereotypes of Asian men. Think about why Jenn, an Asian woman, wants to assign Rodgers as Asian while the rest of the media rightfully identifies him as white.

  82. @Tensix

    I mean are you really so stupid as to not see what this is?

    Ad hominem attacks are not permitted on this blog. This is your only warning; subsequent behaviour of this kind will warrant a ban.

  83. Tensix – Jenn, and some others, accurately labeled Elliot Rodger biracial.

    As to the rest of your comment, please understand – there is no ‘petty grudge’ with Asian American men here. If you disagree with Jenn’s article, that’s fine. But the idea that people have a grudge against Asian American men is preposterous.

    And frankly, any general perusal of Black feminist thought offers numerous takedowns of Black misogyny. The most popular Black musical genre of the past thirty years – hip-hop – is routinely decried for capitalizing on the inhumane and over-sexualized treatment of Black female bodies. This happens so often that even Miley Cyrus cannot escape the critique when she hires Black female backup dancers for award show performances.

    Disagreement with Black misogyny is nothing new, both inside the community and in the mainstream. Should Asian misogyny be immune from such critique?

  84. jenn,

    Ad hominem attacks are not permitted?

    Did you mean like the one you approved by the racist troll, gubbler?

    “Race-sm exists because racial differences are real. Just look at the photos of the yellow geek victims. Do they look masculine? They look more wussy than even white girls.

    If yellow boys wanna feel manly, they should go back home.”

    But Tensix get a ban warning for speaking what people are thinking?

    Nearly half the comments here rightfully criticize your unjustified attack of Asian men during this tragedy. A handful of racist insults to Asian men + compliments to your kowtow/miss-the-point writing come from white guys with fake Asian handles like…

    alexander nguyen
    “Thank you Jenn for this article–

    As a dorky, nerdy, Asian American man who prides himself on a life of honor and self-respect,…”

    I can only imagine how many of your “shares” are the “I can’t believe she’s attacking Asian men after THREE of them just got STABBED to death by a white supremacist who hates Asians.” variety.

  85. nthing that the timing of this article is pretty gross.

    Couldn’t you have at least waited until the bodies cooled before taking out your axe to grind?

  86. @Yun

    Did you mean like the one you approved by the racist troll, gubbler?

    You’ve been posting enough on this site to know that I ban people for ad hominem attacks and the use of slurs, but otherwise will not censor or police content in any way shape or form — no matter how distasteful I find it. That policy protects your speech, Yun, and everyone else who is on this comment thread who is posting stuff I find pretty offensive; like it or not, that policy also protects Gubbler’s. I have a pretty strict “no ad hominems/no slurs” rule, but otherwise, if you are not attacking anyone in particular, you will certainly get at least one warning and THEN a ban. That’s to protect people’s opportunity to present any kind of opinion they want, without my own biases silencing them outright.

    As you also know, I’m typically more lax on people’s first comments because they haven’t received a warning yet, and may not be aware of the policy here. After they hear that their comment is in potential violation and would not be tolerated, it’s up to them to shape up or get booted.

    Yun, peruse some of my other comments. I’ve approved comments calling me a whore and a sellout and they still exist on this site. In short, I’ve made exceptions to my own policy and given people the right to freely lob misogynistic attacks at me. I’ve approved misogynistic attacks akin to what Gubbler said against Asian men, only they are against Asian American women (and written Asian American men). So yes, it is completely consistent that Gubbler got his first comment through.

    Gubbler received a warning, and as far as I can see, hasn’t been back. If he posted anything along those lines again, he would be banned.

    A handful of racist insults to Asian men + compliments to your kowtow/miss-the-point writing come from white guys with fake Asian handles like…

    Did you just say that Alex must not be Asian because he agreed with me? That’s pretty effed up, dude. Alex didn’t do anything; why eject him from the race like that?

    I can only imagine how many of your “shares” are the “I can’t believe she’s attacking Asian men after THREE of them just got STABBED to death by a white supremacist who hates Asians.” variety.

    You’re free to imagine all you want. I’m watching the shares. They are overwhelmingly positive.

  87. “alex” wrote…

    “As a dorky, nerdy, Asian American man who prides himself on a life of honor and self-respect”

    You honestly think that’s written by an Asian man?

    I guess, if I faked a white name like John smith and wrote as “a dedicated farm animal lover and staunch defender of nambla religious hypocrite….”

    You’d believe that too?

    positive? How can you tell? I’m serious. I’d like to know.

  88. @Yun

    “As a dorky, nerdy, Asian American man who prides himself on a life of honor and self-respect”

    You honestly think that’s written by an Asian man?

    What’s my reason for disbelieving it? On the internet, anyone can be anyone. The system also requires implied market confidence that people are by default not lying about who they are and what they write. Other than the fact that you dislike the notion that Alex both self-IDs as Asian American and enjoyed the article, what’s your reason for disbelieving him? That Asian American men can’t possibly like this article?

    That’s pretty narrow-minded, don’t you think? And also, pretty unfair to Alex.

    @Alex

    I am really sorry you are getting roped into this. No one should debate your race ID like this.

  89. You are a politician who missed her calling to mislead the public. Instead, you’re simply misleading your readers. What wasted potential!

    None of my criticism was aimed at his race. Read it again. Here, I’ll put extra punctuation to make it easier to digest.

    “As. a. dorky. nerdy. Asian. American. man”

    Stop playing dumb.

  90. @Yun

    Seriously? Your issue is that an Asian American man would never also self-identify as a dork or a nerd?

    I self-identify as both a dork and a nerd all the time. I even self-ID as a nerd in my AAM reader of the week profile 2 weeks ago.

    I’m not playing dumb, Yun. I really have no idea what your problem is.

  91. @Alex:

    The problem is not that Asian American women marry outside their race. They’re not “our” women, they don’t belong to us. You seem to be saying that you are, by virtue of your Asianness, automatically entitled to women of your own race, and frankly, I’m disgusted by your whole comment.

    I totally agree with your statement about association and possession (despite the fact that other ethnic groups has nowhere near the exogamy of Asians).

    Therefore by the same logic Asian women has no right to Asian men actions and thoughts and beliefs – since it’s a direct corollary of what you and Jenn Fang have written here.

    If this is the case then your (plural) entire argument about how Asian men should feel and believe is contradictory to your sentiment about association and possession as written by AF and by other Asian men.

    To do otherwise would be a double standard that only you and Jenn Fang can tell others how to think and behave but no the other way around.

    In short, “those who live in glass houses shouldn’t cast stones.”

  92. You really have no class. A compassionate person would show more respect to the deceased who were slained by a psychopathic murder. You used this incident to grind your axe and spew your self-deprecating hatred.


  93. The report that Elliot Rodger had Asperger’s was wrong, and Asperger’s and other autism spectrum disorders are not typically associated with violence anyways.

    For the record, autism and some other mental handicaps do indeed feature violence as part of the pathology. It is unlikely – and I have never seen – anyone with an autism spectrum disorder planning violence to the degree that Rodger did. Autism-spectrum violence is, the vast majority of the time, spur of the moment frustration that they are unable to effectively communicate in appropriate ways, hence violence like lashing out, throwing, scratching, self-harm, and physical attacks (usually on loved ones or those familiar to the affected person).

  94. @Ben

    Autism-spectrum violence is, the vast majority of the time, spur of the moment frustration that they are unable to effectively communicate in appropriate ways, hence violence like lashing out, throwing, scratching, self-harm, and physical attacks (usually on loved ones or those familiar to the affected person).

    Right, but that’s not the same thing as saying Asperger’s and autism is associated with violence (i.e. clinically associated). Virtually all people have, at one point or another, felt frustration and lashed out with violence; it’s a fairly natural emotional reaction to frustration that isn’t related to how autism impacts mental function. Put another way, that autism spectrum disorders result in frustration that can manifest with violence does not actually make violence a clinical symptom of the various disorders. So we have to be really careful when we try to make these kinds of connections; it’s not actually a connection supported by the mental health community, and has both clinical and political consequences that are damaging. The mental health community has been doing quite a bit of work this past week trying to push back against the news media’s initial — and false — assertion that Rodger was a high-functioning autistic. I think we should respect that, and not presume to know more about mental health and mental disorders than mental health professionals.

  95. Jenn-

    I’m surprised you didn’t respond to Tenda Spencer. As another Hapa, I see things exactly along the lines as he does and was hoping to see a reply.

  96. Jenn

    Actually I can assure you that from personal experience that this kind of violence is very much to do with how autism affects mental function – the experts have told me as much Violence is not a clinical symptom of ASD but that does not mean that it the disorder does not contribute to violent outbursts. This is just a fact of life for some of those who live with family members who are affected.

    http://www.salon.com/2009/03/26/bauer_autism/

  97. I agree with crazy MM.

    I think collectivism and the idea that there is an “Asian American community” is the real evil here. People should think in terms of individuals, not groups. If they did, Asian men would have no reason to believe that Asian women are “selling out” because it wouldn’t be a woman from the “in group” dating someone from the “out group,” it would just be two autonomous individuals pursuing their own rational interests. Asian women would also have no reason to try to redefine masculinity for Asian men because it would not be their duty to police other people’s behaviors any more than it would be your job to tell a guy on the street to stop smoking.

    The problem isn’t masculinity, it’s collectivism. In an individualist mindset, racial minority men would not feel entitled to women from their community because there would BE no community. Without the idea of ‘their community” to fall back on, minority men would be FORCED to adopt to women’s tastes in order to compete for their affections (and yes, competition will ALWAYS be a fact of life and dating in particular). They would also be forced to expand the range of women they would be willing to date. A lot of Asian men lash out at Asian women since they think every Asian woman who dates out is one less possible for them, but they aren’t even TRYING to date white women (or black or Latinas). Without the “Asian community” as a crutch, they would have no excuses for not trying to date non-Asian women.

    Fact is, people pretend there is an “Asian community” but there really isn’t. The real reason the interracial marriage imbalance is controversial is because one part of the supposed community is thinking like collectivists (men) and the other part is thinking like individualists (women). How they view the “community” is completely different. Collectivists think of the community as a way of preserving their race and culture for future generations. Individualists think of the community as a way of pursuing their own interests with others in a similar situation, not something to be preserved indefinitely. I’m generalizing a bit but on the whole I think this is true. They are on totally different wavelengths so it’s totally natural that they would clash.

    Fact is Asian men have to free themselves of the collectivist mindset if they want to solve their problems. A community can only exist if everybody in that community has the same general goals and aspirations and are on the same wavelength. If you think of community as way of preserving your race and culture, you’re gonna have a bad time because you need women to see it that way too, and Asian women DON’T see it that way. You have to view the “Asian American community” as something more like an interest group or a political lobby rather than an ethnic tribe. If you saw it that way, you would see how absurd it looks for Asian men to feel “entitled” to date Asian women because you would never expect people in a political lobby to only date other people in that lobby.

    In any case, the idea of preserving the race and culture is probably a dead end anyway, since with such a small population and so much outmarriage and improved living standards in Asia reducing future immigration, there probably won’t be an actual Asian American minority in the future, so there’s no reason NOT to date a nice White, or Latina or Black girl. And, no, hapas/mixed race children aren’t going to be the future of Asian America. They’ll be something, but not Asian.

    (BTW hapas fit under the “lobbying group” view of community but not under the ethnic preservation view, another reason many Asian women see outmarriage as compatible with community.)

    TLDR: Asian men need to stop seeing Asian women as a GROUP MEMBERS of an ethnic TRIBE and start seeing them as INDIVIDUALS in an ethnic LOBBY. They also need to be responsible for their own dating lives and look to date non-Asian women, even PRIMARILY, because MOST of the population is non-Asian.

  98. @Jake

    Sorry – Tenda actually had been posting on FB and had reproduced his posts here. I had responded to him there — didn’t realize anyone else was interested. Would you mind elaborating on the part you’d like responded to? His post was pretty long, and the FB thread is also now somewhere in the 100′s of comments…

  99. Also, I realize another problem with your essay/rant here. (…Whew, almost internalized and accepted it, and let it pass by.)

    “Like Elliot Rodger, these men feel profoundly wronged by their perceived emasculation. Like Elliot Rodger, these men embrace the language of the men’s rights movement, and the misogyny of the seduction community.

    ……

    For these Asian American men, specific vitriol is aimed at Asian American women in interracial relationships, which is seen as sufficient indication of internalized racial self-hate (see comments of this post for examples).”

    You basically paint the most negative version of Asian male mindset, and you are trying to push it as if this is a sizeable minority of Asian man such that it is worth a description. This is like someone making a characterization of black males and direct all their vitriol at this characterization, but qualifying it at the end that “this is only some black males, not all, look I am not racist and not reinforcing negative stereotypes”. This is like the most basic tactics of racism 101.

    Wouldn’t you feel offended if someone made a portrait of AA women with every single negative stereotypic traits in the world and write an entire essay to rant at it? Qualifying it as a “small minority” doesn’t help, because the portrait already reinforces and blows up a stereotype which may only describe 1 in 1000 AA woman in reality to 1 in 10 in mental perception.

    This is EXACTLY what you are doing to AA males. How many people in this comment section even fit your mold, other than 1 or 2 trolls accounts? AA males reading your blog and responding to it are probably already fairly angry compared to the general AA male population, so your portrait describes maybe 1 in 10000 AA male in reality, but it blows up this perception to as if 1 in 10 AA male are misogynist and evil like that.

    I am very disappointed that you used such a classic tactic of racism, when you are supposedly fighting it all your life. Maybe you just didn’t realize it, but this is the scary part, you seem to have internalize this negative racist image of AA male, so that in your mental perception, it applies a much bigger portion of AA male than in reality.

    This is sad state of affairs. When you, as a AA activist, are supposedly fairly resistant to internalized racism, internalized such a negative image of AA males, I can’t imagine what an average AA female or the general population is doing.

  100. @Ben

    Like I said, I’m not saying the violence isn’t an issue that family members deal with. I’m saying it’s not clinically associated with the disease. There’s a pretty significant distinction being made there. Autism doesn’t make you violent. Autism produces difficulty in communicating which creates frustration that can sometimes result in violence. I’m not diminishing your, or anyone else’s, experiences with an autistic family member who can express frustration through violent outbursts, but that is definitely not the same thing as saying autism is a disease characterized or clinically associated with violence.

    I know this seems like semantics, but it is an extremely important distinction to be made. In regards to Elliot Rodger, if he had autism (which we have no evidence to think he was diagnosed with at the moment), his autism did not make him a violent killer.

  101. @Sean

    You basically paint the most negative version of Asian male mindset, and you are trying to push it as if this is a sizeable minority of Asian man such that it is worth a description.

    It’s large enough that their harassment is felt throughout the community of Asian American celebrities, writers, and feminists.

    And, the point of this post is not to say many Asian American men resort to this behaviour. It was to ask why the Asian American community tolerates and pursues a conventional masculinity — i.e. misogylinity — that is broadly applied in American society and that can serve to incubate a racial misogynist behaviour in more men than just Elliot Rodger. This post is about conventional masculinity, Sean, and to point out how it damages all of us.

    So, really — the best way to respond to your post is to ask you:

    1) How many misogynists does it take for you to want to repudiate their behaviour?

    and, more importantly:

    2) What’s your definition of masculinity?

    Look, it seems as if your comment basically asserts that this population doesn’t exist. If it doesn’t exist, where did those screen-caps come from? Did you even check out the link that was provided with examples?

  102. Look, it seems as if your comment basically asserts that this population doesn’t exist. If it doesn’t exist, where did those screen-caps come from? Did you even check out the link that was provided with examples?

    It’s a question of scale. You’re harvesting bottom of the barrel comments from crazies on Twitter to try to prove that this is a widespread phenomenon. It’s like if a Jew collected antisemitic Youtube comments and tried to play it off like a second Holocaust is coming.

  103. Comment: I feel it is instinctual and natural for humanity to form groups along ethnic lines. As someone I assume is a full Asian, your desire to express your individuality outside of a group is normal, but you’ve never had to doubt which group that is. As a Hapa, my entire life has been defined by how I fit into one group or another.

    It shows broad ignorance to feel Asian men are somehow more collectivist than other groups of men. Growing up with white men I know first hand that collectivism is present in all male groups. Even many white males that date out of their race still have some sort of negative reaction upon seeing black or asian males with white females. They treat it as if that female is personally insulting them.

    Perhaps you should take a look at Human evolutionary history and see instinctively in all Primate species the males are the guardians of the ‘tribe’ and welcome other group’s females with open arms, exclude and destroy other group’s males, and forbid any of there own females from leaving the tribe. This is what is in our DNA…not sure how easy it will be to overcome these feelings.

  104. @abmmmmmt2

    First of all, I fixed your comment to actually stylize a blockquote. BBCode doesn’t work on this site. Hope that’s okay.

    It’s a question of scale. You’re harvesting bottom of the barrel comments from crazies on Twitter to try to prove that this is a widespread phenomenon.

    So, first of all, you act as if I had to try really hard to get these screen-caps. I didn’t. I just started recording what I was getting over the course of 3 weeks and posted the most relevant things in the context of the writing of the post. And again, the link to the post with a bunch of comments provides more examples.

    And second, the question remains: how many misogynists does it take for you to want to repudiate them?

    And third, the thesis of this article was to assert that what is widespread is our community’s embrace of misogylinity; in its extreme form, it produces this kind of behaviour, which we ignore or dismiss. But, more conventionally, it produces an internalization of definition of masculinity that disadvantages all men and women. We never challenge our underlying assumptions about masculinity, and ask ourselves where we get our concepts of masculinity from.

  105. @Jake:

    “This is what is in our DNA…not sure how easy it will be to overcome these feelings.”

    I’m not sure how compelling an argument this is to me to embrace misogylinity. Our reptile brains compel us to do lots of things that our cerebellums has managed to temper, like not beat to death people who invade our personal space, to not fling our shit at people who annoy us, or to not dig around in trees with sticks. A more refined definition of masculinity that doesn’t involve “primate-like” instincts to possess females is not only something we should aspire to, but certainly something we can reasonably attain as a species.

  106. @Jake
    I’m not saying ethnic preservation is either good or bad and I never said that Asian men are more collectivist than other races. I also never gave a reason (instinct or anything else) for why Asian men are more collectivist than women. I simply said that they are and their collectivist view of the “Asian community” is the reason they are in conflict with Asian women, and that unless they change their collectivism they will continue to have problems because Asian women don’t see the “community” that way and they don’t care about ethnic preservation.

    And if you want to argue it’s impossible to overcome instincts then this whole discussion is pointless because the “masculinity” the OP talks about is based on instinct. Maybe the fact that this instinct for men to want to fuck a lot of women is called “masculine” is socially constructed, but the instinct itself definitely isn’t.

  107. Jenn

    In regards to Elliot Rodger, if he had autism (which we have no evidence to think he was diagnosed with at the moment), his autism did not make him a violent killer.

    It certainly could have – that is the point, you cannot dismiss the idea because it is politically uncomfortable. You cannot possibly know how much his autism (if he had it) contributed to his actions. And yes, autism can make people violent for any number of reasons – you cannot compare outbursts of violent behaviour that “everybody” has had (except for myself) to patterns of violent behaviour exhibited by some individuals with autism – this is just a fact of life. It is not one act of frustration but a series and pattern of behaviours that are most likely associated with the disorder that non-ASD people do not exhibit.

    I’m not trying to be argumentative here, but it is simply untrue that autism cannot be or is not a factor in violent behaviour.

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/10/lost-afraid-where-to-turn-when-autism-turns-violent.html

    http://www.autism-help.org/behavior-out-of-control.htm

    Why would there be outreach and advice specifically to people living with an autistic relative on how to deal with their violent behaviour if autism was not a contributing factor to violence or something that one can expect in some of those who have the disorder? Let’s be honest here, if we want to truly parse the factors leading to Rodger’s violence it does us no good to hand-wave away the possibility (strong possibility in my experience) that if he had autism it could have contributed to his inability to deal with his frustrations in an appropriate way.

  108. So, first of all, you act as if I had to try really hard to get these screen-caps. I didn’t. I just started recording what I was getting over the course of 3 weeks and posted the most relevant things in the context of the writing of the post. And again, the link to the post with a bunch of comments provides more examples.

    You make way too many assumptions. I said nothing about effort. I could very easily collect pages of comments about Jews, or chemtrails, or lizardmen in less than 5 minutes on Youtube or Twitter. If I had my own article talking about somethin like chemtrails in ANY context, I have no doubt I could get a lot of crazy comments posted without any input on my part.

    Fact is, internet comments (ESPECIALLY internet comments) are not good evidence of the prevalence or significance of any viewpoint. Anybody can start a Twitter account or post on Youtube and internet comments are notorious for selecting for certain types of extremists who have the free time and obsessiveness to make these sorts of comments. Internet comments also notorious for being terrible, since the poor quality of the comments scare away better informed and adjusted people. The Rick Yu person you highlighted spends his entire day tweeting Asian porn stars for fucking whites. He’s a nut.

    Fact is, these people are socially and politically insignificant but you are trying to make them SEEM more significant than they are in order to slander regular Asian men and distorting reality in the process.

    Fact is, people with irrational and crazy views have been around since literally the dawn of history. The only difference now is that they can broadcast their views more publicly. I doubt they are much more harmful now than they were in the past.

    Frankly, I think it’s kind of gross that you’re taking advantage of mentally ill people to grind your axe against Asian men. If you were actually interested in preventing an future “Asian Elliot Rodgers,” why not write about mental health care or gun control instead of taking advantage of mentally ill people on Twitter?

    It must be terribly inconvenient to be subjected such heinous verbal abuse whenever you write on your topics, but you’re not special and these comments aren’t special. If you were to write an article for or against the Iraq War, you would also be subjected to abuse. If you were to write an article about abortion, you would be subjected to abuse.

  109. @ Comment and Jenn

    I hope we as Humans can overcome these tendencies. I understand that you as Asian American females will only be faced with these attacks from Asian Males first hand and that is why you feel there is something inherently wrong with them/their culture. You will never be faced or witness these attacks from White males or Black males because you are not part of their group. However, ask White or Black females who date outside their race and you will find that they also have to deal with the same issues their own ethnic group males regularly. If White females out married at a rate of 40% in a country they were a minority in aka. South Africa…you could guess the reaction that white males would perhaps have.

    I was simply pointing out that I do not believe this is an Asian American male issue. It is seen in all groups of humans and all groups of primates for that matter. Once again I hope that we can overcome this.

  110. @ Comment

    As someones who is half white half asian…I could care less about ethnic preservation. In my experience it is not the Asian community that is worried about ethnic preservation. This fear is most embodied by Stormfront, the white nationalist community.

    The fact is there is inequality among the races and as globalization mixes populations, anger and resentment will follow.

    —”They also need to be responsible for their own dating lives and look to date non-Asian women, even PRIMARILY, because MOST of the population is non-Asian.”—

    Asians women have comparatively youthful feminine features…I would think a majority of Asian men prefer Asian women. Many white and black men prefer Asian females too. On the flip side many men do not prefer black females…how does that make black women feel? Go read a black female blog about black males preferring white women- It almost mirrors the sentiment of Asian males. In a multi-ethnic society do only the elite Asian men and black females get to find a mate while the rest suffer?

    Do multi-ethnic societies work? The answer used to be a simple yes. The more I live and experience the world the more I am unsure of this conclusion.

    Black and white communities are more segregated than they have been in 40 years why? News stories about Donald Sterling dominate US headlines for weeks. Anti-immigrant fear is spreading all over Europe (National Front winning elections in France), Australia, and the US at a rapid pace. Whites are leaving areas of Cali because they can’t compete with Asians in test taking. Asian males and females are hating on each other. I see resentment building everywhere, sigh…..

  111. Jenn,

    It pains me to do this yet again, but I feel compelled to now, for the fourth time, help define an important term in this dialogue. When you ask me to “take [my] patronizing attitude down a notch,” I think you are extracting a level of malfeasance from my writing that I guarantee you is not there. When I write:

    >This is a textbook example of begging the question. Your opening statement, the idea that the Asian American community has any culpability or lesson to learn from this incident other than to learn to identify the signs of mental illness is incredibly disingenuous to the facts surrounding Roger’s worldview and mental state. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’ve read Roger’s own writing, but he did not in any material or psychological way associate with the larger Asian American community or the male Asian American community in particular, other than through expression of disgust and dehumanization.”

    >In short, “begging the question” is a logical fallacy in which one extrapolates ideas and constructs an argument on a flawed assumption. For example, I could argue that a triangle is 2 dimensional shape of 4 sides, and therefore the area of a triangle can be found by multiplying the width by the height, and I would be right in that I would find *a* area of *a* 4 sided, 2 dimensional shape, but that does not mean that I’ve found the area of a *triangle*. We’ve fundamentally misunderstood what a triangle is, and now both our conclusions about the area of the triangle and the triangle itself are wrong. As you can see, the internal components may be logically consistent, but if the initial assumption is wrong, then the argument falls in on itself.

    >I feel the need again to help define what exactly a strawman is. It is not, as you seem to be suggesting, a logical fallacy in which a person argues a subset of the main argument, as I am doing concerning the parts in which you try to make a link between Asian American men and Elliot Rodger, but it is in fact a logical fallacy when a person brings up an entirely different issue to distract from the true issue at hand. “Linking Elliott Rodger to the greater Asian American community as you do in quote A, B, and C in your piece is disingenuous…” is not a strawman, “Linking Rodgers to the greater Asian American community as you do in quote A, B, C is interesting, but I think the real issue is the lack of consideration for the risks that police officers face in the line of duty…” is a strawman. Again, I give you the benefit of the doubt, but when I specifically quote both your writing and your responses to point out their inconsistency and contradictions, when I materially deal with the very things that you’ve devoted to print, it cannot, without great mental leaps and wrangling, be considered strawman.”

    you’ll notice that every instance of my providing definitions for key terms was in service of the argument, and I attempted to do so in the most textbook manner possible: free of embellishment or manipulative subjectivity. The idea, in a mathematical proof, as it is in rhetoric, is to have rigorous definitions of fundamental ideas so that the arguments do not devolve into debates centered on sophistry or appeals to pathos. From there, I used these basic building blocks of logic and their analogous fallacies to explicate *why* and *how* your argumentation was wrong, but certainly not to undermine you as a person.

    Unfortunately, I do believe that the track of your responses has followed the path that I’ve described above, in which a discussion of substance eventually devolves into sophistry and appeals to pathos, especially in the way that you’ve twice now asked me change my tone rather than address the points I’ve raised; especially when they are concerning the logical inconsistencies and contradictions in your writing. Obviously you are under no obligation to return anything more than the few lines you have, but it does give the impression that you are conceding or dismissing the issue, rather than addressing them as steadfastly as you were able to make dubious connections between Elliott Rodger and Asian American men.

    Lamb,

    As well meaning as your contributions may have been, the comments you’ve directed toward me actually undermine Jenn’s points more than they contradict mine. When you write that “the major difference between JT Tran and David Choe on one hand, and Steven Yeun and Jeremy Lin on the other, is popularity,” and that “we really can’t tell from celebrities how pervasive ‘misogylinity’ may be among Asian American men,” it directly undermines her statement that “too often, we revere characters like JT Tran, who sells an Asian American-specific version of pick-up artistry workshops, and David Choe, who hosted a popular Asian American focused podcast that intended to subvert Asian American emasculation…”

    In the case of the latter, you undermine Jenn’s attempt to use two marginal Asian American male celebrities as evidence of AAM misogyny by dismissing the use of celebrity as an accurate gauge of anything at all. If I wanted to make that point, I couldn’t have said it any better than you did when you said “we really can’t tell from celebrities how pervasive ‘misogylinity’ may be among Asian American men.” In this case, your statement is equally valid in highlighting the contradiction inherent in Jenn’s argument, in which she tries to use Tran and Choe as indicators of the prevalence of misogyny in Asian American men.

    In the case of the former, by stating that “the major difference between JT Tran and David Choe on one hand, and Steven Yeun and Jeremy Lin on the other, is popularity,” you are basically conceding that one group, the one you call “wholesome,” does indeed have more social prevalence than the misogynistic group. It does not take a master logician to recognize the contradiction in Jenn using Choe’s “popularity” to extrapolate the prevalence of misogyny in Asian American men at the same time that you are arguing conversely that someone known to be involved in women’s issues like Jeremy Lin and serial monogamist Steven Yeun are *even more* popular.

    Bizarrely, you dismiss both TV and twitter as being useful gauges of influence in Asian American masculinity when you write that “a preference for socially affirmative, traditionally wholesome masculinity among Asian American men cannot find evidence amid social media support,” yet you write this at the same time you are confirming Jenn’s argument that Choe’s podcast and Tran’s online videos *are* sufficient evidence. Admittedly, I’m unfamiliar with newer and more unconventionally methods of rhetoric, but isn’t the point of arguing in tandem that you support each others’ argument, not undermine them?

    In any case, when you ask “how do these detractors explain the quotes in the article? When Asian American women are derided as ‘self-hating sellout whores’ for the crime of dating interracially, how exactly do people expect Asian American feminists like Jenn to respond?” you betray the selective vision you have chosen to wear with respect to this article and the issue overall. In one of my very first posts I made it a point that misogyny ought to be attacked, and that Elliot Rodgers was indeed a monstrous mix of sexism, racism, and mental illness. The problem that I, and frankly most of the commenters here, have is that there was, as you correctly identified, a logically inconsistent and tactless attempt to associate Asian American men to Elliott Rodger. For having read all 140 pages of his manifesto, I have yet to see any instance of him using the phrase “self-hating sellout whore,” and he obviously wouldn’t, because, as I and countless others have been laboring to get the point across, Rodger’s form or misogyny is completely different from the type of racism and misogyny that Jenn and yourself are trying to ascribe to Asian American men. As I have written before, the way that the issues should have been handled would have been to “split into two separate posts. One, where you criticize the misogyny of American culture, and how this, white supremacy and blonde fetishization lead to Rodger’s actions; and two, where you explain the complications of American misogyny and how this manifests itself in some elements of Asian American culture, specifically the pick up subculture. At least this way, you acknowledge the distinct and discrete nature of the two problems, and you don’t conflate the two just because the guy in the first situation happened to be, but did not materially or psychologically associate with being, Asian American.”

    Finally, you ask “If they read Elliot Rodger and see uncanny resemblances to the evil some Asian American men impose on their lives, can you really blame them?” The answer is of course no, no one can blame anyone for concocting a subjective argument, but what can cause blame is when someone takes that subjective argument and tries to present it as fact, and does so in a way that is replete with unfounded assumptions and logical inconsistencies, especially when said person refuses to acknowledge them and instead asks those with legitimate criticism to change their “tone.”

    If there is anything that you or Jenn can take away from this, it is that there is a great deal of difference between an argument and a defensible argument, and that that chasm must be bridged through logic, consistency, and reason. Insofar as this article is concerned, there is scarcely enough of any of the three to justify a crossing, and it is Asian American men who are made to take the fall.

  112. @Jake post 1
    I wasn’t criticizing Asian American men. All I was saying is that Asian men can’t continue seeing the “Asian American community” as an ethnic, collectivist one because the women don’t see it that way. They must see it as the women do, as a community of related individual interests, like a lobbying group rather than a tribe. A collectivist cannot pursue the goal of ethnic and cultural preservation without women, but women can pursue their individual interests without men. If men want to make it they must acknowledging that there is no Asian American community in the traditional sense.

    The best thing that Asian men and women could do is to drop the pretense that there is an Asian American collectivity and to consciously recognize individualism. This is far more important than “redefining masculinity” which is supposed to accomplish what, exactly? Men don’t want to be “masculine.” They want to be with women. They just call those qualities that women are usually attracted to “masculine.” Redefining “masculinity” won’t change anything unless you also somehow “redefine” what women are attracted to. The problem isn’t “masculinity” at all. Women aren’t attracted to “masculine,” they are attracted to whatever they are attracted to and just call it “masculine” afterward. And yes, many women are attracted to men who are successful with many women because it can be a proxy for something that is attractive about him. It isn’t the “patriarchy” responsible for this.

    Redefining “masculinity” is pointless exercise that accomplishes nothing. It’s literally a word game. If you were to redefine “masculinity” without changing what women are attracted to, you would just have the problem of totally 100% “masculine” dudes who want to be “attractive” and don’t care at all about being “masculine.”

    What should be redefined is “community”. Asian American men have to get it through their heads that the “Asian American community” today is not a means for promoting “the greater good,” “the race,” “the ethnicity,” “the culture,” or especially the “community” itself. When a country (a collective, a type of community) fights to defend itself in a war, its goal is to preserve that community (i.e. the country) itself for the future. Collectivist Asian men have the same type of view of what the “Asian American community” is. Asian American women generally aren’t concerned preserving the ethnic community. They are individualists. Their view of the community is as a more effective means to promote individual interest by working with people in similar circumstances, but the community itself is without value. Unless Asian men understand this, there will be miscommunication.

    Most of the problems highlighted in the OP’s post aren’t due to misogyny, but to miscommunication. Asian men and women have different assumptions of what “community” entails and it is this miscommunication that causes problems. Asian women see Asian men trying to date them and think “Asian men feel entitled to Asian women.” Collectivist Asian men try to date Asian women and think “Asians should stick together.” The problem is that their assumptions are different and there is a miscommunication. Asian women see Asian men as individuals, no different than a stranger on the street who happens to be Asian. Collectivist Asian men see Asian women as members of the “tribe.” They have different ideas about “community.” Asian men have to get it through their heads that to Asian women, an Asian man expecting an Asian woman to date them is like a member of AIPAC calling up another member and expecting him to fix his car just because they’re in the same political lobby.

    The way to solve these problems isn’t by “redefining masculinity.” It’s by making clear the underlying assumptions. Asian women need to make it clear to the men what they mean by “community.” They have to say (not literally), “We are both autonomous, rational individuals. I am not your ‘sister.’ You are not my ‘brother.’ I am not in this for the group, but for myself, and you are in this for yourself. Our common interests go as far as our separate individual interests. Beyond that, you should expect nothing from me, and I likewise nothing from you. I am not obligated to date you and I am not responsible for your dating life. If you are interested in dating, you should consider the over 130 million non-Asian women.”

  113. @Jake post 2
    I don’t know what you being Hapa and not caring about ethnic preservation has to do with Asians caring about it. There are certainly a lot of Asians who care about preserving the race and culture, especially older and more traditional people. Why do you think so many Asian women complain about their parents wanting to date within the race? Hapas are already mixed. Why would a Hapa want to preserve the race? What exactly would they preserve? Mixedness?

    If you want to argue that “white people are the most genetically superior/beautiful/etc. and will naturally win in a multicultural society” come out and say it. Don’t be a coward and hide it behind vague phrases. But I think your argument is nonsense. It’s a cliche but you completely underestimate the media/social norms. White people are put on pillar because of social norms, the media, because they hold all the power in the economy, government, Hollywood. I don’t care if you think the argument is cliche but media does affect what people are attracted to. Again, a cliche, but a lot of non-Asian women are attracted to Koreans (ONLY Koreans, not any other East Asians) because of things like K-Pop, K-Dramas. Do you think this is genetic? Were these women just a minority predisposed to be attracted to Koreans and they all somehow just gravitated to K-pop? If you think most people are simply attracted to white people’s traits, do you also think that these people are also simply attracted to Korean looks, but not any other East Asian’s? Do you think these women are so good at telling apart Asians that they can distinguish a ~~?KOREAN?~~ from a Mongolian, Vietnamese, or Taiwanese and be properly aroused, when Koreans themselves often can’t? And it’s not just because they look like popstars. Some of these girls will date the most average looking Korean guy just because he’s ~~?KOREAN?~~ just like how a lot of white guys end up with plainest looking Asian girl just because she’s Asian. Granted this is a very small minoritiy in a niche genre but it does show that media and portrayal has its own effects beyond simply people’s looks.

    If K-pop can have that effect on a niche group, imagine how Hollywood, all of TV, pretty much all mainstream media affects the average person’s tastes? This even ends up affecting countries outside the US since American culture is so powerful. Even if it doesn’t denigrate any other race, it’s all geared to make people desire white people, which ends up giving white people more power. With more power they have more options when selecting partners, and with more power to choose they are even more desired. It’s a positive feedback loop. A lot of people will desire the people with the most options because if a person with a lot of options chooses them, it makes them feel better because they “beat” all the other choices. Like I said before, alot of women are attracted to men who have alot of success with women because if a guy with many options chooses you, you must be pretty special. This is also why a lot of people prize white women beyond just looks. White women are still the standard of beauty in Western society and they have the most choices when choosing a partner. If a white woman chooses a minority man, alot of minority men will feel like they “made it” whether they are really compatible or not. Some people are only attracted to certain traits, but I think this is a minority. I think most people in the world are malleable and are heavily affected by society.

    White women are still the most desired among White men. I also don’t think it’s true that most Asian men prefer Asian women. There was some dating site a few months ago that said Asian men on their website prefered Latinas, at least for their sample. I think some Asian men tell themselves that because they can’t see themselves with a non-Asian woman and saying they prefer Asian women makes them feel better. And it’s not just “elite” Asian men who can get non-Asian women. Over 95% of women in this country are non-Asian. Asians only make up like 5% of men. Only a small minority of women need to be open to dating Asian men for it to be theoretically possible for almost every Asian man to end up with a non-Asian. I grew up in the middle of Bumfuck, Indiana. Alot of people had ancestors in the Klan. I dated white girls growing up and I am in absolutely no way “elite.” It was just there were so many of them that you were bound to find one who would be open to dating an Asian.

  114. Jlamb- That’s the second time you’ve ignored my main argument. It’s obvious you are going to keep going on like this so there’s no point in continuing. This will be my last comment on this article and site. I just hope the people who read this article come down and take a look at my comments so they can see this from a normal point of view.
    Oh and I guess the next time some skinhead goes and kills a bunch of black guys I can write an article blaming it on black culture or the ‘mindset of certain sections of the black male community’, since apparently that’s okay. Also according to you if I were to see news reports of a single white looking half-black dude raping or killing it’s alright for me to see an ‘uncanny resemblance between them and “some” EVIL black men’ (stop with the ‘some’ and just be honest with your prejudice).
    This is all so ridiculous I just cannot believe it. I’ve never read an article that was in such bad taste.

  115. @FuBoIn – I’m no debate coach. I’m not here to argue ‘in tandem’ with Jenn. I think you can’t make a claim that argues that toxic misogyny is not pervasive among Asian American men by using Jeremy Lin and Steven Yeun (Asian American male celebrities in nationally televised broadcasts) as evidence. In order for your claim to persuade, Asian Americans would have to publicly reject an Asian American male celebrity whose public reputation reflected some of the misogylinity Jenn identifies in her article.

    We don’t have that diversity of Asian American male images in today’s America. This is most certainly a bad thing, as the community does not have the chance to affirm the wholesome traditionalism of a Jeremy Lin while they outwardly reject the misogylinity Tran and Choe represent.

    The further difficulty here is that, to my mind, Jenn as always argued that the pursuit of misogylinity involved a minute subset of Asian American men. She’s never argued that all or most or many Asian American men hold misogylinity in high regard. That’s a major reason why the detractors of her writing her surprise me – it’s obvious Jenn’s not talking about all, or even most, Asian American men.

    To be clear, I think Choe’s podcast and Tran’s pick up artistry illuminate the desire among a very small group of Asian American men to combat emasculation stereotypes in a proactive manner. From my vantage point, they are not so different from the generations of Chinese American 9-Man volleyball players who foster community among themselves through racially enforced athletic competition. That’s the point: it’s possible to seek a masculine ideal in socially affirming, healthy ways, and it’s possible to pursue a warped masculine ideal in socially dysfunctional, unhealthy ways. Elliot Rodger chose the latter, but he’s not the only guy out there with some connection to Asian Americana who has done so.

    FuBoin, that’s not a subjective argument, though it is an argument that respects the lived experiences of some Asian American women. What’s regrettable here is that in the knee-jerk rush to disassociate Asian American masculinity from any possible association with the part-Asian Elliot Rodger, so many Asian American male detractors of Jenn’s writing – yourself included, FuBoin – have completely ignored the impact Asian American sexism has on the women in your community. Good luck with that.

  116. @Tensix:

    I guess the next time some skinhead goes and kills a bunch of black guys I can write an article blaming it on black culture or the ‘mindset of certain sections of the black male community’, since apparently that’s okay

    If this is the parallel that you would draw to this article than no wonder you are upset. That is not what this article is arguing at all. You read it wrong.

  117. Interesting that a post discussing the unhealthy nature of Asian American male masculinity gets much more noise than a discussion about Asian American mental health.

  118. @chng

    Amen. Although, to be fair, my post(s) on AAPI mental health also was getting pretty steady traffic through this past month. But conversation? Nope. Shares by the people commenting here? Nada.

    Actually, ironically, there are folks who have argued to me that high AAPI suicide rates by women are caused by outmarriage, and that emphasizing intra-racial dating and marriage would be the salve for depression and suicide in our community. Yup.

  119. @Ben

    Why would there be outreach and advice specifically to people living with an autistic relative on how to deal with their violent behaviour if autism was not a contributing factor to violence or something that one can expect in some of those who have the disorder?

    Because, again, there is a distinction between the pathophysiology of a disease — what constitutes a disease — and how one copes with it. Here’s an analogy: cancer treatment, for example, can lead to high rates of depression among patients, due to the high mortality rate, the increasing isolation from friends and family, and the physical pain of radiation therapy. Mental health solutions are a major part of cancer treatment — therapy, exercise, even religion.

    But, depression is not caused by tumor progression. Depression is not not -clinically- associated with cancer.

    See? You can have patients express a symptom in relation to a disease as part of their coping mechanism with it, but trying to ascribe the manifestation to the pathophysiology of the disease be spurious. The depression is related to the outcome of the disease. Self-harm and outbursts is related to the consequences of autism.

  120. @Chng

    It should be the same conversation, eh?

    Well, I think there’s just one really big national conversation right now surrounding the Isla Vista shooting, of which these are all smaller facets.

  121. “Elliot Rodger had internalized a toxic concoction of America’s white supremacy, its rape culture, and its entitlement complex.”

    Yes, having grown up in this country, privy to the image impressions from our o-so-familiar-and-successful media outlets – think back on the many tv shows, hero-and-rescue movies, the how-to-behave-cool songs (some of which were so thoroughly entertaining, you couldn’t help but succumb to the subconscious penetration of skewed values and beliefs of a social order system into your rationale for what makes things right.)

    Consumerism masqueraded for social control of citizens so they act and behave like animals in the jungle, for the sake of creating desire where there is none. How else do you get people to believe in $300 sunglasses, or chemicals to dye your hair blond, with layers of colors to match the mood of the age?

    We now export our wholesome philosophy to other nations, because we’re the best of the best of the best.

    Please, ER’s thoughts should not surprise anyone who’s been in the country long enough, having sniffed the air, eaten its food, and assimilated into the lifestyle of the beautiful people.

    At some point, for those lucky to mature and realize how truly boring the amusement park really is (despite the dazzling effects), maybe the rest of the world can offer more of what makes humanity great – I say, look out and explore other peoples, see the existence of so many other belief systems.

    Do not accept that we are the city on the hill. There are grander visions than this, my friend.

    And I don’t say we are women, men, white, black, gray – what are these entrapment devices? Again, such an amusement park! O, these unspoken rules…


  122. See? You can have patients express a symptom in relation to a disease as part of their coping mechanism with it, but trying to ascribe the manifestation to the pathophysiology of the disease be spurious. The depression is related to the outcome of the disease. Self-harm and outbursts is related to the consequences of autism.

    No, that is completely wrong – nonsensical, in fact. In the trenches it is well understood that cognitive and/or emotional deficiencies associated with the disorder are huge factors in violent outbursts. I have seen it, I have had to deal with it, and the experts – on-site psychologists with decades of experience and the like – attribute the outbursts to the disorder itself. For example, non-ASD people would most likely not respond with violence to things like the rocking movement of boats, or sounds in the distance, or normal gastric pains, some ASD people have – I have seen it.

    Your analogy just does not work in this situation because there is often a clear line of causation between the disorder – cognitive and emotional impairment – and inappropriate responses (i.e violent) to normal everyday situations. In some – not all, and probably not even most – cases violence is part and parcel of the disorder. It is just a fact.

  123. I am an Asian guy and I agree with most of what you said, Jenn. What disgusted me the most about the UCSB killer’s writings is that it could’ve been written by a self-hating Asian guy (and in some ways, it was, even though he was mostly White-looking) and it still would’ve made total “sense.”

    I do think that some Asian guys go overboard in trying to replicate White masculinity in their attempts to level the playing field. Some symptoms of this may include things like Asian frats, idolization of White girls, demeaning of Asian “FOBs,” overemphasis on traditionally masculine American endeavors like bodybuilding, etc.

    But if Asian women are going to demand that Asian guys redefine their sense of masculinity, then Asian women should also reciprocate and redefine THEIR masculine ideals too. I think that in our current culture, we have Asian women admonishing Asian men for buying into American macho culture, yet a large number of these Asian women still chase after White (and sometimes Black) men precisely for having those macho traits.

    What kind of twisted message does this send to Asian men? Why should we be the only group of men that voluntarily disowns our masculinity, only to see other groups of men—the very same groups that publicly demean us through the media and culture—reap the benefits? Why should we sacrifice ourselves? So that some Asian women who will continue to ignore and look down on us can have their consciences soothed and not feel guilty for conforming to the racial hierarchy in America?

    I must reiterate that I agree wholeheartedly that Asian men should not look to White douchebaggery as something to aspire to. But Asian women also have to meet us halfway. They can’t tell us to veer away from “masculinity” when they themselves sexually desire that “masculinity” in non-Asian men.

  124. Honey, there is a HUGE difference between approving vitriol comments attacking three victims who were just brutally murdered, and ones directed towards you – when you are still alive and well, and able to defend yourself (and no one is mourning you). The fact that you don’t realize that completely blows my mind.

    What if it was your son? Or brother? Or even your friend? It would not be a stretch of the imagination that someone who is currently grieving might stumble onto this post and see the appalling things being said about their loved one.

    In comment after comment, I don’t see you ever addressing the complete lack of sensitivity of decency towards the just recently dead. The fact that someone could be so callous and selfish, is given a platform, really makes me sad.

  125. @Pozhal

    But if Asian women are going to demand that Asian guys redefine their sense of masculinity, then Asian women should also reciprocate and redefine THEIR masculine ideals too.

    I absolutely agree. Which is why the post asks “Can we be doing better?”

  126. I’m half-Asian half-white (European). I think I really have noticed a drop in interest of some women when they find out that I’m part Asian. The women are sometimes Asian women, sometimes white. It doesn’t really bother me because I don’t want to be with a person who has a problem with that. But I wonder if cultural stereotypes or maybe bad past experiences with Asians have something to do with it. There are many things that go into making a guy attractive, not just race. Personality, job, income, wealth, looks, beliefs.

    I understand a little bit of what Rodger might have been thinking, but he really didn’t get it. Money and fancy things don’t get you women. If your life is only about fancy things that you buy, you’re probably a boring person. He doesn’t even look like a fun guy in his pictures. Whining and being angry doesn’t get you far with anything. For all the bad things about PUA (I find the talk about negging and physical escalation kind of stupid), it does teach some important things. The most important is that the guy really has to go after the girl. Being shy or waiting for the girl to make the first move at anything is bad for guys. And if things don’t work out, you find another girl.

  127. @Jules

    Honey, there is a HUGE difference between approving vitriol comments attacking three victims who were just brutally murdered, and ones directed towards you – when you are still alive and well, and able to defend yourself (and no one is mourning you). The fact that you don’t realize that completely blows my mind.

    Again, which is why Gubbler received one warning to let him know his comment was in potential violation, and has not been back.

    Free speech is free speech, Jules. I don’t police comments based on whether or not I like the ideas presented, only on whether or not they violate two pretty straight forward rules: no ad hominem attacks against individual participants in the conversation, and no slurs. Outside of that, if I find a comment heinous, they will get one chance to have their comment appear with a warning that no additional such comments are welcome, and they have the opportunity to shape up or not.

    I have had this comment policy for a decade, in order to protect the right for people like you, or me, or Gubbler, to present whatever idea they want to present without fear that I — as site owner — will police their ideas based on my own opinions of what they have to say. People have used this policy to say that David Choe’s alleged rape victim deserved her rape, to call me a slew of misogynistic insults, and to make some insidious attacks on local and national celebrities. Virtually all make it through, sometimes with warnings.

    Do I think Gubbler shouldn’t have said what he said? Of course. I think it was horrible, insensitive and distasteful. But he’s hardly the first person to say something abhorrent on my site. For my comment policy to be consistent, I have to treat him the same way I would treat any other comment: if there are no specific ad hominems and no slurs, and my problem is with content of a comment, the commenter gets one warning and then a ban. Gubbler’s comment, for all it’s horribleness and insensitivity, neither attacked an opponent nor used a slur. Since he’s not been on the site before and so he — like all first-time commenters — gets a benefit of the doubt that they are not aware of the comment policy, he got a warning not to try it again.

    In comment after comment, I don’t see you ever addressing the complete lack of sensitivity of decency towards the just recently dead. The fact that someone could be so callous and selfish, is given a platform, really makes me sad.

    No one gave me this platform. I built this space to allow for the free exchange of ideas — any ideas — regarding Asian Americana. You can either participate in the debate, or you can choose to spend your time elsewhere.

    What if it was your son? Or brother? Or even your friend? It would not be a stretch of the imagination that someone who is currently grieving might stumble onto this post and see the appalling things being said about their loved one.

    Absolutely. Which is why Gubbler got a warning, was told his comment would not make it through again, and that he would be banned if he tried it again.

    In the David Choe piece, about a hundred comments were posted, most of which alleged that “Rose” was either not raped or deserved her rape. If Rose is a real person, how might she feel if she came across a blog post full of commenters blaming her for her rape? That didn’t really seem to be anyone’s concern then. Hell, imagine how any rape survivor feels coming across those kinds of comments? I don’t see anyone particularly concerned about sensitivity when it comes to rape victims.

    If you dislike my comment policy, you are free to go spend your time in an echo chamber, where only ideas you like are expressed. I prefer to have a place that, for the most part, encourages people to express whatever they are thinking about an argument without much moderation. The downside of creating that space is that in order to be fair, you have to create a space where you can sometimes get exposed to some truly nasty ideas, like Gubbler’s. If free speech is free, it’s got to actually be free.

  128. @Comment,

    I agree in some ways with your ideas that people should just see other people as individuals and not as some sort of “collective,” along with the idea of some sort of nebulous “APIA community” that doesn’t even exist. Indeed, when you breakdown the ‘Asian’ idea down by cultures and languages there’s no unifying commonalty, and even ‘Asian’ was invented in the 1960s as a means to organizae more effecitvely.

    HOWEVER, because there was a nessicity to invent ‘Asian’ for political and social purposes and there still continues to be a need today just volumes about the broader institutions of racism against Asians that’s very prevelant.

    I’d wholeheartedly dream the same dream of MLK of seeing judging individuals by the content of their character, but we all know we don’t live in such a world and reality forces people to band together in some ways.

    Which is why your statement about AF being more individualistic and AM being “collectivist” rings false and trite to me; it’s not a matter of choice but by society and media stereotyping and propaganda that AM are seen as “the yellow horde” and AF as acceptable individual partners for WM and “trickle down” for BM.

    When you look at haolewood movies and tv you’ll see the AF as being more desired on a individual level of unaccented English and sympathetic for WM desires as romantic partners to be rescued from the evil Chinatown AM henchmen; whereas the AM are literally the disposable fodder for WM to kill to acquire “the spoils of war.”

    This is still prevalent on tv in ANY “Chinatown episode.” (Go see S01E02 of the new Sherlock Holmes for the perfect example of this.)

    So when you breakdown the sociological aftermath of this constant brainwashing and WM generated mental paradigm, it’s not wonder you have AM being “the yellow horde” and AF as acceptable dating subsitution for WF.

    I’m also glad you mentioned the whole Korean wave and women chasing after Korean men, because the media’s effect on people (and even “academics”) can’t be ignored when it comes to the types of perceptions and social realities.

  129. @Ben

    I don’t doubt you’ve seen violent outbursts. I don’t doubt they are very tough to deal with and I don’t doubt that there is a great deal of coaching and training for friends and family. But, like I said, I’m following the mental health writing not and overwhelmingly, the argument being made is exactly opposite to what you are saying — from mental health professionals.

    See: The Daily Beast – “Don’t Blame Asperger’s For Massacres”, which has a pretty clear thesis statement in the title.

    From the article:

    But the logical leaps—Rodger had Asperger’s, which made him awkward around girls, which made him feel alienated, and caused him to lash out in terrible violence—have experts alarmed.

    “What typically happens after a shooting is that there is wild, uninformed speculation about why this happened,” said Dr. Joel Dvoskin, a clinical psychologist at the University of Arizona College of Medicine. “There are irresponsible people who are happy to guess, which is wrong and dangerous.”

    Dvoskin added that there is no empirical evidence of an increased risk of violence among people with Asperger’s…

    …“In general, violent behavior is not a characteristic of Asperger’s,” said Dr. Shahla Chehrazi-Raffle, a forensic clinical psychologist teaching at the University of California, San Francisco. “Aggressive behavior or angry outbursts can occur, in cases where situations are misread. But this kind of behavior of accumulating guns, of planning how he’s going to kill other people, is not associated with Asperger’s.”

    …Other experts say no studies have been done confirming a link between Asperger’s and violent behavior, and that the fixation on Rodger’s reported Asperger’s is more of a collective attempt to come to terms with tragedy by distinguishing ourselves from the person who has allegedly committed the crime.

    I don’t know which mental health professionals you are talking to, but even when we’re talking about “violence” in the sense of aggression or outbursts, it’s not considered characteristic of Asperger’s per se. And definitely, we’re not talking about the kind of violent behaviour associated with the Isla Vista shooting. Asperger’s –which Elliot Rodger wasn’t even diagnosed with — didn’t make him kill. It is just a fact.

  130. Again, as horrible as rape is, it’s not MURDER where the victim will never be able to recover, rebuild their life, or defend themselves from whatever appalling things are being said about them. And just to be clear, I’m not saying ANY of those other nasty comments are acceptable, I obviously can’t speak to those without knowing what was actually said and the context.

    I’m all for free speech and I welcome differing opinions, but I can’t help but wonder where you draw the line between freedom to express ideas, and simply toxic ill-intended hate speech that needlessly does harm to others.

  131. @Jules

    Again, as horrible as rape is, it’s not MURDER where the victim will never be able to recover, rebuild their life, or defend themselves from whatever appalling things are being said about them.

    I agree. Which is why I don’t agree with what Gubbler said. I do think it is in poor taste, and also … y’know… pretty racist in general. That being said, I wouldn’t downplay what rape victims have to go through. It’s pretty damning to say or imply that it’s not AS BAD to insult a rape victim as a murder victim, because at least she didn’t die from it; at least she’s still around to recover or rebuild.

    The kind of vitriol Gubbler expressed is expressed against all victims of all kinds of violent crimes; as a site owner you do see it all. For me, I think there are few place on the internet that still value the comments section of their blogs. To day, most sites either close their comments section entirely, or turn it into a completely unmoderated free-for-all, where someone like Gubbler could say anything they want as often as they want, silencing all others. Fewer and fewer sites are still investing the time into building a middleground.

    I see writing a post as the chance to start a conversation, not end it. I actually value my comments section as a major component of my blog. I don’t think Asian Americans have enough spaces to express ourselves where we can also have in-depth conversation about conflicting and dissenting views with people who will disagree with us. I think debating people helps to shape and nuance your own ideas.

    I’m all for free speech and I welcome differing opinions, but I can’t help but wonder where you draw the line between freedom to express ideas, and simply toxic ill-intended hate speech that needlessly does harm to others.

    I set up this comment policy to remove barriers towards free expression of ideas, but I moderate closely to make sure that people understand the rules of participation and to keep the discussion flowing. For me, the idea of not policing content is essential, because I don’t think it’s helpful to post that never stimulates discussion from the people who disagree with it. I want to make sure people have a space where there is no doubt that they have largely free reign to tell me I am wrong, and that I won’t limit that right because I pay the bills for this site.

    If I start drawing lines based on the content of a comment, that becomes based on my subjective biases, not on some pretty hard-and-fast rules of what is and isn’t acceptable (ad hominems and slurs are commonly understood, so that’s a good expectation that a person can refrain from doing that in their first post). I’ll still draw those lines, obviously — Gubbler is not invited to post any comment like the one he posted again — but for this space to be one where the free exchange of ideas is the central tenet, the free exchange of ideas (no matter how terrible they are) should at least be possible. Gubbler exchanged his horrible idea. Everyone got a chance to see that this idea existed and had a chance to judge how awful an idea it is. I do not think Gubbler’s idea is conducive to subsequent debate, so he used up his chance to be heard. But, if Gubbler is still reading this thread, he can walk away knowing that his right to express himself existed, and that his idea was found seriously noxious and wanting. There is a chance — however small — that he or someone like him who has internalized these ideas will see the reaction, and it will make him rethink his racism in the future.

    I would not want to create a new policy that allows me to censor people outright based on my distaste for their ideas or my speculation as to their motives. I shouldn’t get to be a gatekeeper as to the quality of other people’s idea, at least not before those people understand what kind of forum they are participating in.

    As I said to Yun, my comment policy protects your right to free speech on this site. But, it must then also protect Gubbler’s.

  132. Comment said:

    All I was saying is that Asian men can’t continue seeing the “Asian American community” as an ethnic, collectivist one because the women don’t see it that way. They must see it as the women do, as a community of related individual interests, like a lobbying group rather than a tribe.

    I strongly disagree with this statement. If a minority group wants to gain influence and retain a sense of identity in a world that constantly pressures them to assimilate into the dominant majority, then you CAN’T simply see yourself as someone “who happens to be X.”

    The reason that more Asian women are able to see themselves as individuals rather than as part of a community is because they can. And in a world where it’s generally socially disadvantageous to align yourself with a non-White identity, groups will do so if given the opportunity.

    It’s funny because whenever you go to forums or comments sections about interracial relationships, Black men say exactly the same thing that Asian women do: that they’re individuals who should be free to prefer White people because love is all about the individual and so forth. Not coincidentally, Black men and Asian women are better accepted by White people than their opposite-gender same-race counterparts. So of course they’re going to have rosier views of how “individualistic” minorities should be.

    If your point is that Asian men should stop waiting on Asian women because Asian women have long since left them, then I also disagree. We need a strong and vibrant Asian American community that acknowledges the differences between us and other racial groups in America. If we’re the only racial group that takes pride in abandoning our ethnic identity, especially when there’s no chance of us White-passing, then that’s just mortifyingly embarrassing.

  133. Jenn said:

    I absolutely agree. Which is why the post asks “Can we be doing better?”

    Glad we agree. However, while you provided an extensive summary of how Asian American guys perpetuate this misogyny and how we can fix it, you did not do the same for Asian American women.

    I agree that we Asian American guys can do better by not buying into White male misogynistic values, by not treating Asian women as battlegrounds for our male egos against non-Asian men, and so forth.

    But my question to you is: what do you think Asian American women should do to play their part? If you could write an essay about that, I think that may be incredibly refreshing and enlightening.

  134. @Pozhal

    Actually, in my mind this essay is not male-specific. If you re-read the post, you will see that in the proscriptive part of the post, it is not gender-specific. I point out a problem — misogylinity, which is defined as our widespread definition of masculinity as linked with sexual conquest prevalent across most of society — and urge us to embrace a different definition, one that doesn’t define masculinity relative to what men and women think of a person. Instead, masculinity is defined as a person’s relationship to oneself.

    To redefine masculinity entirely away from misogylinity and towards progressive masculinity as promoted by Hyphen and The Good Men Project requires all people, men and women, to examine within their own lives how they perpetuate misogylinity by asking how they define masculinity for themselves and others. Do they actually ascribe any meaningful impact of sexual relationships on masculinity? Do they actually allow themselves to think that a man who is walking hand-in-hand with a conventionally attractive woman is more masculine?

    Whether you’re a man or a woman, if your definition of masculinity is influenced by sexual conquest, than you are perpetuating misogylinity. If you believe that a good men are defined by beautiful woman, you are complicit in misogylinity. Women internalize this definition of masculinity as readily as men do. We are all complicit in this — our community in particular because we have established as a goal the reclamation of Asian American masculinity but innately assume that what we mean is to help Asian American men win at a game that is rigged against them and virtually everyone else. This post isn’t targeting men — it is challenging the entire community to not just say we want to uplift Asian American men, but to actually have a conversation about what we mean by that statement.

    So, to answer your question:

    what do you think Asian American women should do to play their part? If you could write an essay about that, I think that may be incredibly refreshing and enlightening.

    It’s the same post as the one above: we need to reject misogylinity’s “game” by questioning its fundamental precepts, and instead embrace progressive definitions of masculinity. Re-read my post — you’ll see that the final paragraphs are intentionally written as gender-neutral regarding audience, and are speaking to the entire community, and both the men and women in it. I use “we” deliberately and judiciously for a reason, Pozhal.

    I think the better question is why you think a separate essay is necessary for women. What more do you expect the role of women to be here other than to — like men — redefine what we think when we think about what makes a “good man” a “good man”?

  135. @Pozhal

    BTW, this is the take-home message of the post. This is what I think all of us should be doing to “play their part” (emphasis added):

    We must stop trying to win the zero-sum misogylinity “game”. We must reject it.

    We must work to redefine OUR community’s entire concept of masculinity so that it reflects important character traits – self-assurance, honour, integrity, intelligence and respect; traits that I believe many Asian American men already possess in spades; traits that I believe truly define manhood.

    That’s a challenge to every single Asian American who reads this post. Not just men, but women too. If I meant to blame men, I would’ve written “Asian American men must work to redefine their concept of masculinity…” I didn’t for a reason.

    Misogylinity, as I’ve defined it in this post, is institutional; ergo, everyone labours under it and it’s everyone’s responsibility to overthrow it.

  136. Jenn


    I don’t know which mental health professionals you are talking to, but even when we’re talking about “violence” in the sense of aggression or outbursts, it’s not considered characteristic of Asperger’s per se. And definitely, we’re not talking about the kind of violent behaviour associated with the Isla Vista shooting. Asperger’s –which Elliot Rodger wasn’t even diagnosed with — didn’t make him kill. It is just a fact.

    The experts I am referring to are the kind who work on a daily basis with autism spectrum kids in hospitals, special needs schools, and respite care homes for adults with disabilities – not the kind whose expertise is derived from a single newspaper article.

    Children with autism exhibit higher rates of aggressive tendencies….http://everydaylife.globalpost.com/stop-violent-behavior-autistic-kids-5502.html – it’s a fact. Sadly, some of these kids never learn how to move past their aggression once they reach adulthood. It is not about violence being more likely in ASD individuals – where have I said that? – but that does not mean that autism does not lead to violent behaviour in some individuals.

    http://adiaryofamom.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/autism-and-violence/

    http://www.autismspeaks.org/sites/default/files/section_1.pdf

    You are arguing against something that I never said (that autism makes people more violent) and, I think, speaking about something which you only seem to understand through newspaper articles. Sorry, Jenn, but in this instance you just don’t know what you are talking about – if you are genuinely interested in expanding your understanding of the disorder I would hope that you could find the time to do more than merely read some newspaper articles that vaguely quote “studies”. Talking to parents with autistic kids, or volunteering at a special needs school or respite care home, or, perhaps, not being dismissive of people who do have first hand experience of dealing with kids and adults with autism may also be of benefit.

    http://www.myaspergerschild.com/2010/06/anger-and-violence-in-aspergers.html

    http://www.care.com/special-needs-how-to-handle-the-4-most-challenging-autism-behaviors-p1017-q14202645.html

    See you in the trenches.

  137. @Ben,

    I think we are disagreeing based on our definition of “violence” vs “aggressive”. Do you really think mass shootings is a symptom that belongs on the autism spectrum? Do you have any particular rebuttal to the article’s further note that exactly 1 mass shooter in America has been confirmed to have been diagnosed with autism (and it’s not Elliot Rodger)? We are not talking about the outbursts that arise out of frustration from a child dealing with his or her autism. We are talking about whether or not autism or Asperger’s makes a person more likely to commit an act of violence, or whether or not violence is “associated” with the disease.

    Experts say no: http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20121218/aspergers-violence

    Article also cites parents:

    Bell, who also has a son with autism, says it’s important to understand that the condition is a developmental disorder that arises early in life. Children and adults with autism spectrum disorders struggle to communicate with others. They may feel socially isolated and have trouble feeling like part of a group. They may also have repetitive or restrictive behaviors, like rocking or shaking their hands.

    “There’s absolutely nothing in that definition that talks about violence or committing aggressive acts,” Bell says.

    Like I said. I don’t discount the aggressive outbursts, and that they happen, and happen frequently. But you were the one who linked autism with violence in the case of Elliot Rodger, arguing that autism is a disorder clinically associated with violence. I even said, in my first comment to you, that this isn’t about aggressive outbursts, which I agree can happen. But to say something is clinically associated with a disease is to say the disease caused the symptom; that is not the case with autism and violence.

    And I volunteered with special needs kids, including autistic kids, all through middle school and high school as a student. So please don’t act like I’m ignorant on this. I don’t have a special needs kid in my family; it doesn’t mean I dont’ have some experience on this topic or that what I have to say is irrelevant.

    I wasn’t dismissing you. I was disagreeing with you. Don’t dismiss me.

  138. BTW, Ben — this is in the A Diary of a Mom post you linked to me:

    If we’re going to address these problems, we need to start with the root cause, instead of giving in to notion that violence or self-injury are simply random behaviors arising from autism itself.

    Exactly. For those with autism, the violence is a reaction to an underlying frustration triggered by a failure to be heard along with the autism obstructing communication. Violent outbursts, when they happen, aren’t a consequence of the disease, they are a reaction to it. In much the same way that depression is a reaction to cancer.

  139. Jenn,

    I do appreciate that you used “we” a lot in your post. I do appreciate that you used “Asian Americans” in your title instead of just “Asian American men.”

    My main issue is that while you extensively (and rightfully) singled out various Asian male offenders, from the PUA “experts” to trolls who harass you online, you did not outline how exactly Asian women also contribute to White male primacy.

    In other words, you provided Asian guys with at least a rudimentary “What NOT to do” guideline that highlighted specific behaviors. However, you did not do the same for Asian women. Calls to fight against misogyny and White male primacy are noble but very nebulous and difficult to actually carry out without specifics. I just think it’d be helpful if Asian feminists such as yourself not only laid out how Asian men can make a difference, but how Asian women can as well.

    I think the better question is why you think a separate essay is necessary for women. What more do you expect the role of women to be here other than to — like men — redefine what we think when we think about what makes a “good man” a “good man”?

    I think you’d agree with me when I say that the experience of Asian men and women are different in this country. And our methods in fighting against the same racism and sexism are different too because there are things Asian women can do that Asian men can’t, and vice versa. For example, Asian men should not revere or adopt the PUA mindset. Obviously Asian women aren’t out there reading “The Game,” so what should be their methods? What specifically can Asian women do to help kill the toxic PUA culture?

    I don’t expect Asian women’s roles to be more, but I do think that these roles and tasks are distinct enough that lumping them all into a “we” category isn’t very useful.

    Let’s say you write an article that admonishes Asian men from harshly judging Asian women who date interracially and calls upon those men to reassess why they’re so upset. That’s fair and legitimate.

    But you should also examine it from the other side and acknowledge that there are indeed some Asian women who do have racial issues and internalize White male primacy in their own personal lives. Or if you don’t agree with that, you could acknowledge that American culture certainly promotes WM/AW relationships while ignoring/denigrating Asian men, so much so that Asian men do have reason to feel excluded (and erroneously blame Asian women). So what can Asian women do, that Asian men can’t, to fight back against this?

  140. @Pozhal,

    I think you’d agree with me when I say that the experience of Asian men and women are different in this country. And our methods in fighting against the same racism and sexism are different too because there are things Asian women can do that Asian men can’t, and vice versa. For example, Asian men should not revere or adopt the PUA mindset. Obviously Asian women aren’t out there reading “The Game,” so what should be their methods? What specifically can Asian women do to help kill the toxic PUA culture?

    See, I actually think our roles are the same in fighting misogylinity. I really think it’s about introspection, identifying how we perceive of masculinity, as the first step towards change.

    This post is offering a nascent idea about change within the community, that is really getting at the root idea of what we think about masculinity. I think we need to be having conversations about masculinity, talking about what it is, and what it isn’t; about our goals, and our definitions; about what a progressive masculinity can look like. Literally, I think we’re at the thinking stage of this problem — we have no clear idea of what progressive masculinity looks like, so we need to build that.

    That’s not something that Asian American women need to approach differently than Asian American men. We’re both equally capable of having this conversation, and should be meeting to have this conversation in earnest. W

    that there are indeed some Asian women who do have racial issues and internalize White male primacy in their own personal lives.

    Agreed, as do Asian American men. I do not see this as a gender-specific problem necessitating gender-specific essays. Hence, I felt it was reasonably addressed in this essay.

    American culture certainly promotes WM/AW relationships while ignoring/denigrating Asian men, so much so that Asian men do have reason to feel excluded (and erroneously blame Asian women)

    Yes. I feel this post certainly acknowledged this. However, this post also asserted that the reason Asian American men feel excluded is because our pervasive definition of masculinity asserts that some a consensual sexual relationship is a reflection of the masculinity of both the participating and some third party. In a progressive masculinity, the prevalence of interracial relationships of any kind should not make Asian men feel ignored or denigrated, because one couple’s sexuality should have nothing to do with the masculinity of Asian men.

    Hence, the whole point was to re-hinge our ideas about masculinity not on sexuality, and instead on character traits — and arrive at a definition that is far less toxic for all. So, that extent, I think I acknowledge why there is hurt and pain, but also pivot towards why this is really a manifestation of a more global, problematic institution of misogynistic masculinity, that is sexist towards women and racist towards men. I understand why Asian men are hurt — we are all raised in the same bad institution — but that’s the reason why it must change.

    So what can Asian women do, that Asian men can’t, to fight back against this?

    I have no earthly idea. We are both capable of thinking, reflecting and talking to one another, and that is, I think sufficient for where we are in the stage of this idea. Like I said, I’m not entirely sure what you’re trying to get at.

  141. Yes. I feel this post certainly acknowledged this. However, this post also asserted that the reason Asian American men feel excluded is because our pervasive definition of masculinity asserts that some a consensual sexual relationship is a reflection of the masculinity of both the participating and some third party. In a progressive masculinity, the prevalence of interracial relationships of any kind should not make Asian men feel ignored or denigrated, because one couple’s sexuality should have nothing to do with the masculinity of Asian men.

    You completely miss the point. Men don’t care about being “masculine” for the sake of being “masculine.” They care about being with women. You’re not going to make this instinct go away by “redefining masculinity.”

  142. Jenn,

    “We must work to redefine OUR community’s entire concept of masculinity so that it reflects important character traits…”

    Since you’re asserting that this a communal effort, why is your focus soley directed at redefining masculinity? Seems a bit odd to completely disregard defnitions of femininity in this discussion. The name of this blog is reappropriate; whom is reappropriating what for whom? Would you be comfortable with an article written by a man attempting to redefine feminity in from a male viewpoint?

    Your definition of misogylinity strictly pertaining to masculinity severely restricts the potential scope of conversation and presents an unbalanced solution. As I mentioned earlier, aspiration of sexual conquest is not limited to male achievement. If you loosen your definition, the discussion can be opened up to include feminist discourses as well. For example, instead of completely rejecting “the game”, we could level the the field for women through the liberalization of female sexuality. This would surely have an impact on the issues involved in this discussion and its a potentially viable alternative to your solution of rejecting human sexuality. By focusing purely on defining masculinity, this example is excluded from discourse.

    I also noticed that there seems to be some inconsistency with your perceived scope of misogylinity, can you clarify? :

    “Misogylinity, as I’ve defined it in this post, is institutional”
    “At extreme margins of Asian Americana, misogylinity has taken hold as a thriving sub-culture”
    “what is widespread is our community’s embrace of misogylinity; in its extreme form, it produces this kind of behaviour, which we ignore or dismiss. But, more conventionally, it produces an internalization of definition of masculinity that disadvantages all men and women.”

    Are you saying sexual conquest wholly defines masculinity for just a radical subset and to a lesser exent for the community at large? If it’s concentrated at the margins, it cannot be by definition widely accepted or institutionalized. I dont think most would agree that the larger community embraces sexual conquest as the main defining characteristic of masculinity, perhaps one aspect, but not the only qualification.

  143. I don’t think favoring one race of people over another for a romantic partner fits my view of femininity either. But this is exactly what many Asian American women do as well as others. Don’t expect others to conform to your ideas of “masculinity” when you don’t or won’t conform to their ideas of femininity. You won’t even criticize anyone’s choices so long as they discriminate against Asian men so don’t criticize them when they choose to value one ideal of masculinity over yours.

    Besides, instead of criticizing the people who have the power to change societies values (white males) including the status quo ideals on masculinity since the control the media you choose to criticize those who did not create them and have no power over the media. Disgusting.

  144. @say whaaat

    Would you be comfortable with an article written by a man attempting to redefine feminity in from a male viewpoint?

    For example, if a man might assert feminism? If his ideas are good, than sure.

    For example, instead of completely rejecting “the game”, we could level the the field for women through the liberalization of female sexuality. This would surely have an impact on the issues involved in this discussion and its a potentially viable alternative to your solution of rejecting human sexuality. By focusing purely on defining masculinity, this example is excluded from discourse.

    Sure, which is why the comments section exists. I disagree that liberation of female sexuality could remove the misogyny of the misogylinity mindset, but if you disagree, make the argument.

    Are you saying sexual conquest wholly defines masculinity for just a radical subset and to a lesser exent for the community at large?

    It popularly defines masculinity as an undercurrent for the community at-large, however at the margins, it is radicalized. It is not concentrated at the margins, it is simply more overt and extreme at the margins.

    I dont think most would agree that the larger community embraces sexual conquest as the main defining characteristic of masculinity, perhaps one aspect, but not the only qualification.

    I did not say, nor do I believe it was “the only aspect”; but, I do think the conflation of sexuality with masculinity is a predominate aspect of our popular definition. We see manifestations throughout Hollywood, throughout bar culture, throughout high school culture, and throughout frat culture; and indeed, if this were not our popular definition, Asian Americana’s general emphasis on trying to correct emasculation stereotypes would neither be as primary a political goal, nor more specifically would it be directed towards increasing pop culture images of Asian American male sexuality. Ask yourself why people are excited about John Cho’s upcoming “Selfie” for example, or why, for many, Steve Yeun’s portrayal of Glenn Rhee challenges Asian American masculinity? For many, the argument depends not exclusively on the positive characteristics expressed by both characters, but also on the fact that they are cast in the role of romantic lead. For some, their role as sexual lead is the most impactful aspect of their roles on Asian American masculinity.

    Big Bang Theory, similarly, draws upon misogylinity ideas to rewrite ideas of nerd masculinity. It’s a great show, but the notion of “emasculated nerd appropriating masculinity by winning the hot girl” is clearly a central tenet of it.

  145. But this is exactly what many Asian American women do as well as others.

    Data?

    You won’t even criticize anyone’s choices so long as they discriminate against Asian men so don’t criticize them

    I won’t?

    Besides, instead of criticizing the people who have the power to change societies values (white males) including the status quo ideals on masculinity since the control the media you choose to criticize those who did not create them and have no power over the media.

    You’re right. I won’t give a pass to men of colour for reinforcing patriarchy simply because they are of colour. The idea that only White men have the power to oppress, and therefore are the de facto “villains” of social justice work is an unfortunately binary, and oversimplified, model of identity politics that fails to reflect any contemporary idea of intersectionality.

  146. “You completely miss the point. Men don’t care about being “masculine” for the sake of being “masculine.” They care about being with women. You’re not going to make this instinct go away by “redefining masculinity.””

    Totally agree with this. Guys will always want sex. Even if you somehow magically make it so that guys who don’t have sex are seen as on the same level of coolness or masculinity as guys who have tons of sex, they are still not going to feel any less lonely or ignored.

    Besides, I think your solution of redefining masculinity is too idealistic. It is too ingrained in our society to redefine. I bet it’s as deeply ingrained in you too. Be honest here. How many women, including yourself, are going to see some 30 year old virgin guy as the pinnacle of masculinity even if he had all the other traits you listed? A lot of women will not only not see that guy as masculine, but will see him as a loser. So how can women ask guys not to define masculinity by sex when they themselves put so much importance on it?

  147. Guys, I’m not sure why you’re trying to argue with her. You are not going to get her to admit that the prevailing factor in many AF/WM unions is mixture of white worship and internalized racism. As it relates to Elliot Rodger, I can only presume that his mother was the wrong person to make him feel proud of being (part asian) though, as I have seen many times, he may have been made to feel special because he was at least part white.

    The definition/re-definition of “masculinity” is lipstick on the pig that is the Asian Community (I actually include Asia as well as western Asian in this as well). The simple fact is that for most Asian females, the aesthetic ideal is a Caucasian. Almost the entire Asian Feminist platform is built on getting the Asian community (ie Asian Males and traditionalist) to accept this fact.

    I think @Comment is the only one brave enough to suggest an actual solution. Disband the idea of an asian collective. It is ridiculous to hear an Asian (man or woman) say they are proud to be Asian, can speak the language, observe tradition etc, etc but are attracted to and prefer the way Caucasians look (ooh but I’ll teach my half-asian children to be as proud of being an asian as “I” am). The images of Asian women I see do not encourage Asian males in fact the vast majority support the white male hegemony. The success of Asian females in the arts or media are in fact detrimental to what is left of the Asian community. In the US what keeps the Asian community going isn’t Asian Americans, it’s Asian immigration. If you were to stop immigration today, East Asian’s would virtually disappear within 2 to 3 generations. And no I won’t consider Lisa See and Alexa Chung as examples of how Asians should look.

    We should agree that as Asian Males, you will not look to Asian females for encouragement or support (or to hear that they have redefined their view on masculinity but still prefer Caucasian features) as they will not give it to you nor are they obligated to. As well, Asian females should not look to Asian males for the same things. I have seen and heard first hand open-minded white, black and latina females support AM’s much more aggressively than any AF’s ever will.

    You might consider me bitter, but I’m not. I’m happily married with child. I see the constant bickering between AM’s and AF’s as a sign of society/culture not really worth saving. I see AF’s (though there’s a growing number of AM’s as well) as the greatest instigators in our collective racial/ethnic/cultural denigration and am disgusted at how we hide our ingrained, internalized racism under the guise of racial harmony. The Asian (worldwide) experience is divided among gender lines. AF’s have already staked their side of the line it’s time for AM’s to do the same.

  148. Just so you’ll understand. This attitude isn’t unique to Asia or America. These Asian Americans you keep mentioning stood a very good chance of bringing this attitude over with them from their home countries. Asian Americans don’t have it any harder than Asian men who never leave their home country. There are all kinds of blogs and websites in Korean, Japanese and other Asian countries where the doomed to perpetual virginity gather to bash women for not recognizing them as the most desirable nerds on the planet.

  149. Edge,

    The fact is that a lot of Asian American guys who are around my age (early to mid-20s) are in interracial relationships. Come to think of it, the majority of my Korean American male friends seem to have White girlfriends (myself included).

    I think the time may come soon when Asian American guys will also have to ask ourselves if we’ve internalized White ideals too much.

    So if Asian American men and women stop viewing each other as linked in any way, what happens in the end? Both Asian American men and women start having White partners en masse?

  150. Jenn,

    Would it be fair to characterize your post as more of a general call to action on both genders, and that it was never meant to be a “How To” guide?

    If so, here’s what my guide would look like, just for starters. Let me know what you think.

    For Asian Guys:

    1) Don’t take WM/AW relationships so personally

    Firstly, you don’t know the couple’s history. Many, if not most, of these couples are probably free of any self-hate or fetishization. Secondly, even if they are, you’re not doing yourself any favors by letting them get you down. Instead, go live your life! I’m not saying to completely forget that there is anti-Asian male bias in Western society, but don’t let it consume your life to the point where all you’re doing is hating and not loving. Thirdly, most non-Asian women probably don’t care as nearly as you do about these couples, so don’t think that everybody is laughing at you behind your back.

    2) Truly appreciate Asian women

    I think a lot of Asian guys lose credibility with Asian women when they give off the sense that they secretly want to date White women if given the opportunity. Let’s not forget that Asian women, like us, have insecurities too, a lot of it stemming from race. There’s no group of men who are more naturally inclined to empathize with those issues than us, so we should not make Asian women feel as though they’re our property or consolation prizes. As wonderful as women of all races are, Asian women offer something truly unique because of our shared experiences and heritage. Make sure to never forget that and always let people know.

    3) Take ownership of your Asian identity, including stereotypes

    The funny thing about racial stereotypes is that positive things become negative when applied to minorities. For example, take musical ability. If a White guy is seen to be musical, it makes him seem cool. But when it’s an Asian guy, people make jokes about tiger moms, being a band geek, or playing in one of those church groups. There are lots of things that Asian guys are stereotyped as that could be very positive if looked at in a different way. Personally, because I’m Korean, people generally assume that I’m very fashion-conscious and have access to delicious cuisine. That’s a great start. Learning not to view your Asian identity as a liability is the first step towards greater self-confidence.

    For Asian women:

    1) Examine your racial “preferences” for those outside your race

    If you have racial preferences, especially for White guys, ask yourself why that is so. If you’ve grown up in a culture where every hero, idol, movie star, lead singer, and athlete have been non-Asian guys, don’t just chalk up your preference for them as some natural and unchangeable thing. People’s tastes change all the time depending on their surroundings. If you don’t like the few Asian male Hollywood celebrities that are available, venture into Asian pop culture. It’s not all tentacle porn and super girly men, despite what Western media would love to have you believe.

    2) If you like Asian men, let the world know

    The weird thing is that while there are so many Asian women out there that do love Asian men, so few of them seem to speak out. It’s come to the point where some Asian guys honestly believe that all Asian women hate Asian men, which is ludicrous. It just seems that every writer or columnist or filmmaker just so happens to be an Asian woman who doesn’t especially favor us all that much. If you think that Asian men don’t need your support, we really do. Whether it’s writing an article that rebuts the desexualization of Asian men or simply sticking up for us when you’re with your non-Asian friends, we’d love it if you’d be outspoken advocates for us.

    3) Give the racial aspect more weight, instead of just viewing this primarily as a gender issue

    I think a lot of Asian women are averse to prioritizing the “masculinization” of Asian men because they think it’s retrograde gender politics. White and Black feminists aren’t out there trying to sex up the images of their men, so why should Asian women? But that’s only if you refuse to consider the racial equation and ignore the unique predicament of the Asian community. There is nothing progressive about White guys once again coming out on top at a minority male group’s expense. Moreover, if you look at the Black community, you’d see that the exact same issue plays out, only with the genders reversed. In interracial relationship discussions, some of my biggest supporters and empathizers are Black women, because they know the pain of being told that they’re not good enough compared to their White counterparts, especially by people in their own community. Are these Black women practicing retrograde gender politics? No, they’re fighting back against racism and ideas of White primacy. So the “masculinization” of Asian men is in the same vein.

  151. So what can Asian women do, that Asian men can’t, to fight back against this?

    Jenn, I think it says a lot that you doesn’t have a separate answer (in the form of a plan or proposed suggestions) to this question. You can immediately say what you’d like Asian men to do, but you can’t say what you’d like Asian women to do other than “I want them to do the same thing I want Asian men to do.”

    I think this shows that you aren’t self-critical enough. In fairness, it’s much easier to criticize others than yourself. But your lack of a separate answer suggests to me that you haven’t ever given it serious thought or any thought at all.

    How about Asian women stop fetishizing white men? And let me preface, no, this is not about “selling out” or double standards about how Asian men can date white women but Asian women can’t date white men. People can date whoever they want to date. This is about asymmetrical preferences.

    On Coffee Meets Bagel, across all races, most men did not have an ethnicity preference. Among those who did, Asian men and white men have roughly symmetrical preferences: 92% of Asian and white men are looking only for Asian and white women, respectively; and ~8% of Asian and white men are looking only for white and Asian women, respectively.

    What about for women who have an ethnicity preference? This time, most non-white women did not have a preference whereas most white women had a preference. And this time, among those who had preferences, they were very asymmetric: 66% of Asian women preferred Asian men compared to 100% of white women who preferred white men. The remaining 34% of Asian women all preferred white men compared to (obviously) 0% of white women preferring (any) non-white men.

    Of course, Coffee Meets Bagel is not an accurate representation of America because its user base is much more Asian and much more Jewish than America is as a whole. So strong conclusions can’t be made from this, but what does it say that white men don’t prefer Asian women any more than Asian men prefer white women, but Asian women prefer white men MUCH more than white women prefer Asian or non-white men?

  152. @Pozhal

    Would it be fair to characterize your post as more of a general call to action on both genders, and that it was never meant to be a “How To” guide?

    Sort of. My post is a plea for both genders to begin the process of changing our definition of masculinity, but it is about starting a conversation, not assuming the conversation is finished.

    In my mind, this changing of our definition explicitly delinks masculinity with sexuality, meaning that this — “1) Don’t take WM/AW relationships so personally” — would be “don’t take relationships so personally”. This one — “2) Truly appreciate Asian women” — would be “respect women”, and do it because you respect them, not because you want to date them. I think the delinking needs to happen for all men, not just Asian American men, but that the conversation is of particular relevance for our community precisely because our political priority is the pursuit of masculinity, so we are sort of in this unique position of being able to define for our community what kind of masculinity we are pursuing. We have the choice right now to internalize misogylinity, or to explicitly reject it in favour of a better model. To that end, I think we should be talking about what we think defines masculinity and manhood, and explore definitions that are progressive.

    I do have a hard time understanding how delinking masculinity with sexuality should work alongside prescriptions that still call for women to alter their sexual behaviour, though. So, for example, your prescriptions for women still assume that our sexuality can and should be used to reinforce progressive masculinity. Yet, the point of progressive masculinity is that it does not seek validation from men or women, only from self.

    In my ideal world, both men and women would recognize and appreciate the progressively masculine that is self-defined — which would include sexual reinforcement — but this would happen organically without the politicization of women’s sexual choice. So, I want women to self-reflect and embrace progressive masculinity, which will lead many women to find it more sexually attractive; but that this isn’t something I want to establish as “a goal” that states how a woman SHOULD act. When the sexual choices of women is appropriated as a political tool, it becomes reasonable to shame women for “choosing wrong”. On an individual level, I think women — and men — should hold themselves accountable to do more in self-reflection of their definitions of masculinity and manhood. If on an individual level, that causes men and women to make different sexual choices in favour of progressive masculinity, than great. I am very antsy about establishing a shaming of sexual choice as a “call to action” though.

    3) Give the racial aspect more weight, instead of just viewing this primarily as a gender issue

    This one lost me.

    But ultimately, do you see why I don’t think there needs to be a separate guide for men and women? Men and women both just need to self-reflect and start the conversation about why mainstream masculinity is regressive and oppressive for Asian American men and women. That’s about it. We have no new tangible idea of progressive masculinity yet beyond my own ideas, so the idea that we need a call to action now is putting the cart before the horse.

  153. Pozhal, it’s sad, but Edge is probably right. I think unlike any other race out there, asians are just so far divided on this issue, that there’s no coming back. The fact that you and so many of your friends are dating white women sort of shows this. Some of it might be due to internalizing white ideals. But I think the majority of it is just a reaction against asian women. If an asian guy grows up and is constantly put down by his counterpart, why wouldn’t he move on and look elsewhere? The only thing stopping this from occurring en masse like you said is that white women still aren’t into asian guys as much as white guys are into asian girls. But as asian guys are being seen in a better light more and more, this is changing.

    I just see so much bitterness from this issue that I don’t think we will ever come together on it. Look at the stuff that happened on UCLA’s campus. Have you ever seen a case with any other race where they attacked each other with such hateful messages? I mean, imagine how bitter the asian guys had to be to come up with things like that. Even asian guys who aren’t bitter like Edge have given up. I’m starting to care less and less myself about Asian women and their causes. Why should I care about asian women when so many of them don’t care about asian guys?

  154. Van,

    Other races have the same problem. In Latino communities, there is the whole attitude of “mejorar la raza,” which often simply comes down to Whitening one’s racial line. The UCLA incident was long predated by incidents such as the one at Brown University where a group of Black women put up a list of shame of Black men who allegedly only sought to date White women.

    There is nothing that unique about what Asian Americans are going through. The details may differ, but the pressure and incentives put on minority groups to aspire to Whiteness is out there for everybody.

  155. Jenn,

    I just don’t think you can have it both ways. If things like Asian feminism need to exist because the Asian female experience is different from the Asian male one, then there must also be unique ways that Asian women can fight back against anti-Asian racism and sexism. The existence of Asian feminism implies the need for a separate sphere of Asian female discussion in addition to a broader Asian discussion. So within this separate sphere, there must be actions that Asian women can take that Asian men can’t (or shouldn’t) to fight back against racism and sexism.

    I am not saying this because I think that men and women are so fundamentally different that they cannot fight against injustice in similar ways. I don’t believe in genderized social action, unless we have no other choice. It’s my strong belief that the experiences of Asian American men and women are different enough that we may require different actions to achieve the same goal. You may disagree. But then I’d have to ask, if we are so similar, then why do we need Asian feminism?

    I also don’t think that requiring Asian American women to date/marry certain people in certain proportions is the solution. Note that none of my suggestions impose such a requirement. Rather, it either asks for more critical examination or voicing of opinions that they already hold.

    However, acting as though Asian women’s preferences, even if they are knowingly racist, are somehow beyond question because they can’t be helped is wrongheaded. Using that logic, misogynists can also justify their “preference” for being shallow entitled dicks because that’s simply the way that they were raised and acculturated. If we expect one group to change and go against the established social mores of their gender, then we must think that it’s possible for the other group as well.

  156. Pozhal, I don’t think the problem runs as deep in the Latino community as it does in the Asian community. The one situation that is kind of comparable that you brought up is what black women face. But even then, I don’t think the black men were attacked with such hatred and slurs like the asian women at UCLA faced. I’m not saying our situation is unique. I’m just saying it’s gotten to the point where there is so much hatred, that it’s hard to come back from.

  157. @Pozhal

    I appreciate your question, and think perhaps there is a misunderstanding about what Asian American feminism is and why it exists.

    If things like Asian feminism need to exist because the Asian female experience is different from the Asian male one, then there must also be unique ways that Asian women can fight back against anti-Asian racism and sexism. The existence of Asian feminism implies the need for a separate sphere of Asian female discussion in addition to a broader Asian discussion.

    Asian American feminism exists not because there is a need for a separate Asian American female space, or dialogue, or conversation, but precisely because it has been separated — via institutionalized patriarchy — from mainstream Asian American thought, voices and action. For me, feminism and gender equality are synonymous, and feminism exists purely to elevate Asian American women to the same position as Asian American men without our community by giving voice to historically silenced Asian American women. Asian American feminism exists because we are not treated as equal and we are already separate, and exists to close that gap.

    I also don’t think that requiring Asian American women to date/marry certain people in certain proportions is the solution. Note that none of my suggestions impose such a requirement. Rather, it either asks for more critical examination or voicing of opinions that they already hold.

    I agree, you are not imposing a requirement, and I hope my response did not come off to you like I thought you were. But I think this post identifies a significant problem — the use of our embrace of conventional masculinity as a cudgel for shaming of Asian American sexual choices, particularly those of women, by politicizing what should be an irrelevant personal choice. I’m asking how we can create a system that doesn’t replicate that same structure. Do you not agree that establishing a hierarchy of sexual choice through the rationale of subverting conventional masculinity just recreates the same problem? I fear that calling to action that Asian American women highlight their mate choice to an Asian American man misses the point — that masculinity need not be linked to sexual choice and conquest in the first place.

    However, acting as though Asian women’s preferences, even if they are knowingly racist, are somehow beyond question because they can’t be helped is wrongheaded.

    I absolutely agree, which is why I wrote my “So She Wants To Defend Asian Fetishism” post (which you can check out to see my willingness to call out racist fetishes among Asian American women). But my point isn’t that this isn’t wrongheaded, it is that this is and should be immaterial to a conversation about masculinity, which I think is better served by highlighting a masculinity that doesn’t depend on sexual and heterosexual relationships.

  158. Put more simply, Asian American feminism is not about uplifting Asian American women vs men in a separate but equal doctrine. It has always been about creating true gender equality through unification of purpose and progressive politic. I don’t consider myself a separate space from other Asian American blogs because I focus on feminism, and I most certainly do not think men should have no place in this conversation.

  159. @Pozhal

    The UCLA incident was long predated by incidents such as the one at Brown University where a group of Black women put up a list of shame of Black men who allegedly only sought to date White women.

    I can’t see this as defensible behaviour in any way.

  160. Calling this a mental health issue would be irresponsible? I think you pulled back your arrow a bit too soon. Here’s yet ANOTHER story about this guy that speaks the same tone with previous mass killers over the past 25 years:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/02/us/elliot-rodger-killings-in-california-followed-years-of-withdrawal.html

    You want to compare this to Asian American men? Your feminism overshadowed what had really happened and the root cause.You took your personal bias to compare and contrast it to such a small group within a small minority group here in America, the 1% of the 5%.

    I’m not trying to discount your message. Your points are valid and it shouldn’t be overlooked because misogyny is a serious issue that reflected across the world, not just the Asian American community. Take your blinders off and look at the broader picture about this particular incident. Be responsible in your writing not to relate two mutual exclusive incidents together and relate them.

    Thank you.

  161. @Akamai,

    The Elliot Rodger shooting is complex, and it is as irresponsible to blame it on only one thing — mental illness — as it is to blame it on another thing — misogyny. This post is looking forwards, not back. I don’t know what made Elliot Rodger kill, my only hope was that our community might be able to start a conversation on masculinity in the wake of this heinous crime.

  162. But I think this post identifies a significant problem — the use of our embrace of conventional masculinity as a cudgel for shaming of Asian American sexual choices, particularly those of women, by politicizing what should be an irrelevant personal choice.

    Apparently the feminist credo “the personal is political” is only true when it’s not inconvenient. Then it’s an irrelevant personal choice. Can’t you see your ideology is full of holes?

    You keep ignoring the fact that “masculinity” is all beside the point. What men care about is being with women, not “masculinity.” And no. Straight men aren’t just going to stop wanting women and you aren’t going to socialize them to stop desiring women.

    The only solution is rational egoism.

  163. Jenn, can you please link to the Facebook thread with Tenda Spencer’s post? He had some interesting points, and I’d like to see where the discussion went from there.

  164. There were some societies where being obsessed with sex and women was considered unmanly and feminine, but do you think men who desired women cared they weren’t considered “masculine?” Of course not. Like most men, they didn’t care what you called them, as long as they had access to sex.

  165. Do you not agree that establishing a hierarchy of sexual choice through the rationale of subverting conventional masculinity just recreates the same problem? I fear that calling to action that Asian American women highlight their mate choice to an Asian American man misses the point — that masculinity need not be linked to sexual choice and conquest in the first place.

    I agree, to an extent.

    But think of it this way. A lot of us are telling “Angry Virgin” types to stop only focusing on the “hot girls,” and that if they diversified their taste in women, they may find it easier to have fulfilling relationships.

    Are we not reinforcing the idea that there is a hierarchy of desirability among women, and that those on top are those who are superficially beautiful? And that men of a certain type should not try so hard (and in futility) to make these women like them?

    In an ideal world, there would be no such need to do this. But in our world, a hierarchy definitely does exist and we need to acknowledgethat before trying to strive for a “flat” world. I think a “post-sexual hierarchy” mindset is as blind as a “post-racial” mindset.

    I can’t see this as defensible behaviour in any way.

    Wasn’t defending it. I was just saying that such actions weren’t unique to the Asian American community. That is, if the flyer was indeed perpetrated by an Asian guy anyway (which may be beside the point because the fact that we all think that an Asian guy would have motivation is the real issue at hand).

  166. A lot of us are telling “Angry Virgin” types to stop only focusing on the “hot girls,” and that if they diversified their taste in women, they may find it easier to have fulfilling relationships.

    Are we not reinforcing the idea that there is a hierarchy of desirability among women, and that those on top are those who are superficially beautiful? And that men of a certain type should not try so hard (and in futility) to make these women like them?

    Yes, absolutely! That’s exactly what i’m trying to get at with this post! That’s why the solution is not to tell “Angry Virgins” to “give up” on hot women in favour of “not hot” women, but rather to stop hierarchizing women and pinning one’s own masculinity on obtaining a woman! There’s no way to win if we’re still hierarchizing women to masculinize men, and so it becomes a zero-sum game. It’s impossible under this system for men to win unless women lose, or vice versa. So, we need to think outside the box and come up with a system that does pit the politics of women against the politics of men.

    I think the way to break outside of this box is to separate masculinity from sexual conquest. A masculine man is defined by his relationship to self, not relationship to women; so an “Angry Virgin” can find comfort in who he is, not have to satisfy himself by chasing women of various “hotness” levels. (Straight) women who also internalize progressive masculinity should also, organically, be more attracted to men who have a better relationship with themselves and ergo are more masculine, simply because they are more self-confident. So, this should ultimately lead to healthier masculinity and sexuality, without placing the onus of defining one by the other.

    Which is why I think the responsibility is on both genders to self-reflect on masculinity, and challenge how they may currently be perpetuating a regressive model. The rest should follow naturally, without having to be prescribed.

    But in our world, a hierarchy definitely does exist and we need to acknowledgethat before trying to strive for a “flat” world. I think a “post-sexual hierarchy” mindset is as blind as a “post-racial” mindset.

    Well, this is more of a “pragmatics” argument. And I’ll agree that my solution is more theoretical than practical at the moment. Which is why it starts by having a conversation, not calling to action. There is nothing to call to action on, yet. We still need to talk about what we even think progressive masculinity looks like, so I think it’s premature to start talking about what men and women should be doing. Within the AAPI community, this is one of the few times we’ve even been willing to question what we mean by Asian American masculinity and fighting against emasculation, so I say we have an honest debate.

    What do you think masculinity is, Pozhal? Why do you think it’s defined the way it is? And is there room for a progressive masculinity?

    Also, I’m not sure I would argue my framework to be “post-sexual”,since I don’t argue that sexuality shouldn’t exist; indeed, I think it’s an important and healthy facet of human life. I just think, politically speaking, it should be defined as a separate thing from masculinity and femininity because otherwise you end up reinforcing the politicization of private sexual choice.

    Wasn’t defending it. I was just saying that such actions weren’t unique to the Asian American community. That is, if the flyer was indeed perpetrated by an Asian guy anyway (which may be beside the point because the fact that we all think that an Asian guy would have motivation is the real issue at hand).

    I was talking about the flyer you said was circulated by Black women shaming Black men for their choices. That is just horrible, Scarlet Letter type behaviour.

  167. I don’t know if you’re just waiting until my posts get pushed to the bottom before you approve them so you can avoid answering the question, Jenn Fang. But I would be real interested in your response to my argument that the problem isn’t whether men are considered “masculine” or not, but whether they can get partners.

  168. @Comment

    But I would be real interested in your response to my argument that the problem isn’t whether men are considered “masculine” or not, but whether they can get partners.

    I haven’t responded because, in my mind, I have already addressed in the body of the post, that the problem should not be whether or not Asian men can get partners. Asian American men can clearly get partners; that being said, the notion of the “incel” or “uncel” is a distinctly PUA notion, and should be rejected outright as a mainstream rationale for political advocacy.

  169. Also, if you keep putting in dummy emails that differ from one another, you will keep being treated by WordPress as a new commenter, since it uses email address and login name to identify new vs. returning commenters. I would suggest you sign up for a WordPress account to avoid having the system hold each comment for moderation, or at least to stay consistent with your fake email addresses. Otherwise, you’re stuck waiting for me to approve every one of your comments, and I do, of course, have other things to be doing too so I can’t be immediately responsive.

  170. @Comment

    What men care about is being with women, not “masculinity.”

    Do you care to back up your argument with something more than “it just is so let’s not do anything about it”? The point here is that what we embrace as conventional masculinity (i.e. misogylinity) is misogynist. Are you unwilling to interrogate the ramifications of what you believe “just is”?

  171. Jenn,

    When I think of good actions that Asian women can take, I think of articles like this one at The Bold Italic: http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/4500-asian-male-stereotypes-complicate-my-love-life

    When an Asian woman writes something like this (an article that defends Asian guys without necessarily making it a mandate for Asian women to exclusively be with Asian guys), it doesn’t matter who she’s dating or is married to. Because ultimately, what really bothers Asian guys is not that Asian women are having interracial relationships, but that their choice to do so devalues our desirability in society and ruins our chances of venturing outside our group to find partners. That’s why a lot of Asian guys take WM/AW relationships so personally: not usually because they think they “own” those women, but that the common sight of such couples will ruin our chances with non-Asian women. If things were relatively equal to both our genders, then it wouldn’t matter as much what Asian women were doing.

    What’s your opinions on articles like these?

  172. Do you care to back up your argument with something more than “it just is so let’s not do anything about it”? The point here is that what we embrace as conventional masculinity (i.e. misogylinity) is misogynist. Are you unwilling to interrogate the ramifications of what you believe “just is”?

    And I am saying that “masculinity,” whether it is misogynist or not, does not matter in the least. You assume that the reason men want to be with women is because, you claim, the concept of masculinity is based on sleeping with a lot of women. Men want to be seen as “masculine” so they try to sleep with a lot of women to be seen as “masculine.” You assume men value “masculinity” on its on own merit. You assume that if “masculine” were redefined, men would place less value on being with women because what they want is to be “masculine.”

    I say your argument is backwards. I say that men want to sleep with women because it’s basically a hardwired instinct. The reason men want to be “masculine” is because those characteristics called “masculine” are simply the ones women are attracted to. If “masculine” characteristics had no sex appeal to women, men would attach no value to being “masculine,” so your attempts to “redefine masculinity” would result in nothing because what men will still want is to to sleep with women.

    If most women suddenly found men who had manboobs attractive, I’ll bet you anything that men would be rushing out to figure out how to get fat and trying to get hormones, no matter how “unmanly” this would be. If most women suddenly found men who dressed like drag queens attractive, I’ll bet you anything that men would be rushing out to clear out the lingerie section, no matter how homophobic they may be. Face it, most men are just responding to what is considered attractive to women. It just so happens that what women consider attractive today is labeled “masculine.” And it just so happens that many women also find men who are successful with women “masculine.”

    And are you really suggesting that your political movement is going to get heterosexual men to stop placing value on being with women? Can you name even ONE society where the overwhelming majority of heterosexual men did not value being with women?

    I mean, even in religious communities where chasing women and sex outside of marriage is pretty explicitly considered improper, people want sex. I mean, if an entire society isn’t putting any emphasis on having a lot sex and partners, why do so many people in religious communities end up having sex outside of marriage, cheating on their partners, and everything? I mean, shouldn’t they just be satisfied being a “godly person” and waiting until marriage? Why would people feel the need to control sexuality at all? Because it’s hardwired, and no amount of “redefining masculinity” is going to stop it. People, and men in this case, want sex, and if you think playing word games is going to get them to stop valuing sex when totalitarian religions can’t, all I have to say to you is good luck.

  173. FYI, there are 4 times as many Asians on this planet as Whites. China alone has way more people than all of the white people on this planet combined. If you don’t like “oppressive” white culture, its not hard to find places on this planet where there are no white people. That is the secret no one wants to talk about. Everyone wants to cry victim and claim they are a persecuted minority at the hands of the evil white man, but globally speaking, there aren’t that many white people and with their birthrates, they are quickly declining. White are a minority. Asians are the global majority. Not the other way around. Stop acting so persecuted. Personally, I like the spread of narcissism and selfishness because hopefully it will lead to people having less children, which is really our only hope for saving this planet. Have less kids people!

  174. Where did I say that I wanted men to stop valuing sex?

    Oh, I don’t know. The whole post? What exactly is your point if you’re not trying to get men who aren’t “successful with women” to not see it as an insult to their “manhood?”

    Or are you just being pedantic because you have no good response? Because I said nowhere you wanted to turn men into drones.

  175. @Comment

    What exactly is your point if you’re not trying to get men who aren’t “successful with women” to not see it as an insult to their “manhood?”

    To identify how tying masculinity with “success with women” hurt all men and all women, because it is foundationally based on commodification of female sexuality and externalization of masculinity. I never said I wanted men and women to stop valuing sex, I said I think defining one’s own manhood based on how many women you can fuck, and how hot they are, is a screwed up system for everyone involved. It’s in the post — even if individual men “win”, everyone loses, because the “game” is rigged.

    Please don’t ascribe motives to me that are not there.

    Because I said nowhere you wanted to turn men into drones.

    Here:

    And are you really suggesting that your political movement is going to get heterosexual men to stop placing value on being with women? … if you think playing word games is going to get them to stop valuing sex when totalitarian religions can’t, all I have to say to you is good luck.

  176. To identify how tying masculinity with “success with women” hurt all men and all women, because it is foundationally based on commodification of female sexuality and externalization of masculinity. I never said I wanted men and women to stop valuing sex, I said I think defining one’s own manhood based on how many women you can fuck, and how hot they are, is a screwed up system for everyone involved. It’s in the post — even if individual men “win”, everyone loses, because the “game” is rigged.

    You don’t get it. I am saying that men will want “success with women” whether being “successful with women” is considered “masculine” or not because it is instinct. It is instinct that most heterosexual men want to be successful with women. Labels do not matter. You could call “success with women” a “feminine” trait rather than a “masculine” one and men would still want to be “successful with women.” You could call it something absurd like a “canine” trait and men would still want to be “successful with women.” You have never addressed that. Do you even understand the argument?

    Here:

    Well? You didn’t answer the question. You just went off on some nitpicking about “value.” Guess what? If heterosexual man values sex, they’re going to want to have sex. And guess what? They’re going to want to have sex with the most attractive person to them. You see, people have different tastes. That the Rodgers guy was into blondes or whatever was his own “irrelevant private sexual choice.” Some men find really obese women attractive and being “successful” with obese women would be a positive to them. What exactly are you suggesting? That men seek look for sex with people they aren’t attracted to?

    If someone values sex and aren’t getting it, it will be a source of resentment because they aren’t getting something they value. Do you understand?

    For heterosexual men, this is equivalent to “success with women” however they want to define “success.” It might be 1 woman, it might be many. It doesn’t matter. They just want “success.” Do you understand?

    The only situation where someone would be A-OK with not getting sex is if they do not value sex or if it is very low on priorities. Do you understand?

    I am saying that what men value is sex and “success with women,” not “masculinity” for its own sake. Do you understand?

    So if you “redefine masculinity” to exclude “necessarily being successful with women,” men who have a sex drive will still be resentful if they aren’t successful with women because what they value is “success with women” and NOT “masculinity.” You are begging the question by linking them in the first place when “success with women” can be separated from “masculinity.” I am saying the sex drive can be separated from “masculinity” and men who value sex with still be resentful if they are sexually frustrated no matter HOW masculinity is defined. Do you understand?

    Reminder that for some men “success with women” might just mean being a long term relationship with 1 woman.

  177. I agree with comment. No matter how you define masculinity, the system will still exist. Men will want to have sex with women no matter what. So what’s the point of redefining masculinity? You can tell a 30 year old virgin all you want that he’s masculine. It’s not going to stop him from feeling bad that he hasn’t had sex and is losing the game.

  178. People need to stop casting Asian men as a group as the villains in morality pieces like this one. It’s untrue, unfair and only serves to hurt the image of the majority of Asian men who, by your own admission are decent people. And pardon me but you seem to have a very high minded view of what Asian American men should to to reclaim our masculinity. First of all, we don’t need to do a damn thing. Our masculinity isn’t something somebody took from us and gets to give back to us. That’s horse shit.

  179. Also please permit me to say that I’m a bit insulted by how masculinity is presented. I don’t know what kind of Asian men you know, but myself and all the Asian men I know: we’re no better and no worse at those things than any other man. Our masculinity in the eyes of society is not defined by those things, regardless of how much we would like them to be. People still look at us and see emasculated half-men without even bothering to get to know us. Even though I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean to, your presentation carries with it the implication that our perceived lack of masculinity is a result of us being poor friends or poor fathers etc.

  180. your presentation carries with it the implication that our perceived lack of masculinity is a result of us being poor friends or poor fathers etc.

    I don’t think that, nor do I think my post asserts that. Would you mind elaborating on how you got this impression? As I wrote in the last line of my post, I think the qualities that define masculinity are qualities that Asian American men already have in spades.

  181. Again, to clarify I don’t believe YOU yourself feel this way but when you listed the criteria for masculinity as defined by Snoopy, you are attaching the piece to that particular definition. I agree with that definition but if you and I agree that the problem is that people perceive that we lack masculinity, then the assertion then becomes that people see us as lacking these characteristics. Or perhaps I am reading this wrong and your assertion is that people perceive us as emasculated because they evaluate masculinity incorrectly. That is actually a far more serious issue for me because it becomes impossible to disprove people’s bullshit self-fulfilling prophecies. Anyway, sorry I didn’t mean to come off as strongly as I did, but this issue is something that has always found a way to INFURIATE me because it’s been so relevant to me for so long.

  182. @Andrew

    Or perhaps I am reading this wrong and your assertion is that people perceive us as emasculated because they evaluate masculinity incorrectly.

    Yes (kind of). I think masculinity is popularly defined by a set of characteristics that include as a major component sexuality and sexual conquest, and that this is further informed by stereotypes of White men as the norm with Black men as hypersexual (mandingo stereotypes) and Asian men as asexual (a remnant of early Orientalist stereotypes of Asian men well documented in the first cultural encounters been Asia and Europe). When masculinity is linked to sexuality, it becomes based upon the sexual stereotypes that are used to oppress non-White men (and women). The solution is either to eradicate race-based sexual stereotypes — a righteous cause in its own right that I support — or to disconnect masculinity from sexuality by focusing on positive character traits that men regardless of race already possess such as those listed.

    I argue that we actually need to do both because even if you eradicate sexual stereotypes and thereby make masculinity something attainable for men of all races, it’s still a heterosexist system that disadvantages gay men (you cannot demonstrate your masculinity through sexual conquest of women if you’re not, y’know, attracted to women) and commodifies the sexuality of women (if chasing and winning women earns you masculinity, the sexuality of women becomes something men can trade like tokens for the purposes of keeping score; women become dehumanized and lose our sexual agency).

    So, it’s not that Asia American men actually aren’t masculine. It’s that as a society, we — all of the West, including Asian America — are focused on the wrong definitions for masculinity. We place far too much emphasis on sexual conquest, and implicitly accept that a man who is coupled with a beautiful woman is conferred greater masculinity. We accept that men in action movies should act alongside beautiful women to accentuate their testosterone. We accept that the bodies of women belong strewn all over the magazines of “masculine” sports — like car racing or hunting — to emphasize the masculinity. We ultimately never question why we believe that the sexuality of women defines the masculinity of men for most of pop culture.

    Also, I understand why you’re infuriated. I’m infuriated too. The reason why this issue resonates, yet we rarely have a meaningful conversation, is because it is so impactful and personal to so many people.

  183. Honestly, I think another reason meaningful dialogue is so difficult is how deep gender splits Asian Americans. Not to an extent that we notice it in our interpersonal interactions, but certainly on a macro level. The unfortunate thing is that this has become so easy to do. For both genders. As an Asian man, I think most of us possess a certain amount of anger towards a society that seemingly reinforces colonial stereotypes. And when we see men of every other race held up as a better example of masculinity, there is a certain level of difficulty and bitterness that comes with that, because as much as a vast majority of us believe that love is love, it’s impossible to ignore that other, ignorant people will see it and wield it as a tool to reinforce their own horribly flawed world view. And sometimes it can seem like no one else is in the corner of Asian American men. Asian women, as you have pointed out, feel ridiculed and are understandably angry when they feel their own culture lashes out at them (it is my sincere hope that most of the vitriol you have received comes from internet trolls and not actual Asian men).

    I hope that a dialogue can open up soon on this topic. Because this situation right now is not one my wife and I want to pass off to our future children.

  184. This quote from Jay Park, a popular kpop singer, is very relevant to Asian men.

    “Justin Lin was off the radar and now he’s playing with the best of the best. People can’t hate on him even though they want to because he’s so good. That’s how a K-pop star has to be over in America if they want to succeed. They have to be so good in every single way that even if people hate, they can’t really say anything”

    Stop wasting your time trying to change stubborn Asian female minds.

    Make yourselves better and the women will naturally come.

    Black men went through similar crap when white people couldn’t control them anymore. Black men had to do it themselves just like we have to.

    You simply need to…
    ? NEVER match bad stereotypes in any way
    ? Fix your mindset and fix your frames of mind
    ? Get fit and dress well
    ? Get conversation skills
    ? Approach girls
    ? Escalate

  185. As an Asian male, this just kind of makes me sad. I think that this article is in poor taste so soon after 3 Asians were murdered. An article blasting sorority girls (not all or most, but an implicitly significant number or else why bother addressing them) who empower the misogynistic attitudes found in this killer would be in similarly bad taste. We have seen the nation unite behind women after this tragedy. I never expected a #yesallasians movement, but in my opinion, this article is basically the opposite of that. I think it only would have been appropriate to link this unique type of Asian misogyny to this tragedy if the killer had displayed a hatred towards Asian women who date outside their race. In fact, he hated Asian men (especially those who talked to white girls).

    The unique brand of Asian misogyny you write about is certainly a problem. I even agree that it indirectly played a role in this killers mindset. But any group, including women, can be similarly blamed for empowering these attitudes in our society. I do not dispute that Asian males with this attitude are a significant problem; they have affected you, and that makes them significant. I think this is a subject worthy of discussion, and would have applauded your article if it were not tied to this tragedy. I just don’t think it was appropriate (even though the article is largely accurate).

    Part of this stems from the fact that coverage of this incident has largely ignored the fact that the killer was explicit in his hate for Asians and murdered 3 of them. This is obviously not your fault. I don’t even blame the media for this; Asian racism is certainly not as sexy of a topic as sorority girls (I don’t know what topic would be in our culture, other than maybe Asian school girls). Still, I cringe at the discussion of how a group of bad apple Asians have indirect responsibility towards this tragedy, especially when contrasted with the how coverage on this tragedy has ignored the hatred towards Asians (propagated by society) that directly contributed to the tragedy.

  186. The majority of the world is Asian. Whites are a minority. I agree with the author, by buying into white stereotypes of masculinity, you are giving your power away. If a lot of women love white men because of movies etc, who cares. Yes, women are sheep to Hollywood and status, but there are a lot of women in this world and there are plenty of places where there are no white men. Just go there. Oh, and maybe major Asian countries should stop aborting their female babies. That might help. There are roughly about 1 billion white people on the planet. There are roughly 4.3 billion asian folks. You want to know why so many people covet whites and in particular blondes? Because they are scarce. Part of this is just the economics of supply and demand. Meanwhile China has 1.35 billion people by its self! That’s disgusting. But seriously folks, stop having so many babies. The world can’t handle it. There are just way too many people. People are way more concerned about getting laid or landing a cute guy than saving the planet.

  187. If the core argument here is that we need to redefine masculinity in order to solve this problem, then that is a losing argument. -Not because it’s invalid, but because it not going to change anytime soon. Sexual prowess has been a core attribute of masculinity for far too long now.

    As an Asian man, whether you buy into this or not, the truth remains that Asian women have far more sexual options then Asian men have. We see it around us every day. We see it in notable Asian female celebrities who only date white men (Kelly Hu, Lucy Liu, Kristi Yamaguchi, etc.) we see it in the parentage of almost every Hapa we meet. (“oh your mom is Asian, how nice…Olivia Munn), and we see it portrayed in the movies and on tv. (2 Broke Girls)

    Asian men are literally *surrounded* by constant reminders of their bottom-tier status in American society. And when there is that rare occasion where the pairing is the other way….like pop singer Lorde and her Asian boyfriend, the internet literally explodes with anti-Asian sentiment, disbelief and derision.

    So yeah, we can invent clever terms like “Misogylinity” and have endless debates in our ivory-towers but the reality is what we see with our eyes every day and that’s not going to change anytime soon.

  188. It is not uncommon to hear Black women attack Black men who date outside their race. Imagine if a Black man wrote an article connecting those women to the attitudes displayed by the killer (humans should never feel entitled to other humans). Maybe true, but inappropriate to write about in connection with this tragedy.

    Take it one step further and imagine that this atrocity was committed by a half-Black, half White (but white looking) female. This woman hates (but lusts after) White guys who date women who aren’t even half-White like she is (especially when they go for “ugly Black girls”). Her first few victims were Black women and her next were White guys.

    All the coverage is on the white guy victims with little coverage on the Black female victims. It is true that a small subset of Black women who feel entitled to Black men may have contributed indirectly to this half-white woman feeling wronged by white men. I don’t think it would be appropriate for a Black man to write an article highlighting the not insignificant number of Black women angered by Black men who date outside their race, and then connecting that aggression to murders that did not directly involve Black men. The subject of Black women who feel entitled to Black men is worthy of discussion, but not in connection with the tragedy.

    I admit that switching the genders muddles a ton of male privilege type stuff related to the real story. A #yesallwhitedudes movement would be silly. I still think the analogy is applicable.

  189. Interesting perspective. Just so you know, misogylinity has been documented as early as the Roman Empire. The more people, male or female of all ages and sizes, a man or woman penetrated, the more masculine that person was. Its culture then spread to Western Europe where lords and knights had the right of virginity to any woman in serfdom. It continued to thrive in Britain and America until universal sufferage and rights in the 1900s. Misogylinity is not an Asian American concept. It was originated from Caucasians and introduced to Asians through the Silk Road and British Imperialism.

    But, I agree that a good way for Asian American men to stop misogylinity is to simply stop playing the game. Surely in the land of opportunity there are better things to do than complaining how Asian women swoon over Caucasians at first sight?

  190. To Will and Joe,

    As an Asian guy myself, I understand where your concerns are coming from. I too am quite wary of being unfairly blamed because Asian men make for an easy target, whereas it’s much more difficult and costly to attack White men, especially as a minority. I shake my head at “Joy Luck Feminism.”

    But while the UCSB shooter may have been anti-Asian male, he was still male, first and foremost. I think we’d all be in severe denial if we said that we didn’t known Asian guys who shared some degree of his mindset. Yes, most guys of all races probably go through the Angry Nice Guy stage, but I think that Asian guys probably feel it more acutely because of the gendered racism against us. The most chilling thing about reading the UCSB shooter’s manifesto is the realization that if you just take the “beautiful Eurasian” parts out, this could’ve been written by a self-loathing Asian guy and it still would’ve made perfect sense. There’s something very Asian about his need for approval by White blonde girls.

    I think what Jenn was trying to do was alarmingly acknowledge that these attitudes are likely to exist in Asian American men due to a variety of factors, one of which is the systematic emasculation of our group by American society. She used inclusive terms like “Asian American” and “we” to suggest that it is up to both Asian American men and women to change the dominant definition of masculinity so that we don’t idealize predatory and entitled behavior. You can still be masculine and not be some PUA enthusiast who only enjoys sex for the self-validation and zero-sum aspect of it (i.e. guy is the “conqueror,” and girl is the “conquered”).

    That being said, I thought the post could’ve done more to just even lay the framework of what Asian American men and women could hope to achieve once the “discussion” was over because, let’s face it, a “discussion” is often what we have when we want to avoid actually fixing the problem. It’s the sociological equivalent of a political task force.

    Here’s an interesting report by a sociology professor at UC Riverside on how Asian American women internalize White male masculinity: http://citation.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/0/9/4/3/p109437_index.html.

    Perhaps a post that reflects on the findings of the report and how Asian American women can fight against it would’ve assuaged some of the complaints that many Asian guys here have had.

  191. “Perhaps a post that reflects on the findings of the report and how Asian American women can fight against it would’ve assuaged some of the complaints that many Asian guys here have had.”

    Exactly. I think the biggest problem asian guys have with asian girls is that they don’t believe that asian girls have their best interests in mind. And how can they? They don’t have any idea what asian guys go through. Our experiences are totally different. I’d have a better time relating to a black girl than an asian girl.

    I mean, take a look at her “solution.” It’s not to make Asian guys as desirable as any other race. It’s to make it be cool for Asian guys to be undesirable. How laughable is that? If it was Asian girls who were undesirable, do you think she’d offer up a “solution” like that? Of course not.

  192. Van.

    I’d have a better time relating to a black girl than an asian girl.

    Yes, I’ve often found this to be the case as well. It’s great that there’s cross-racial understanding, but it’s also more of a sobering reflection of the racial-gender hierarchy in America.

    I mean, take a look at her “solution.” It’s not to make Asian guys as desirable as any other race. It’s to make it be cool for Asian guys to be undesirable. How laughable is that? If it was Asian girls who were undesirable, do you think she’d offer up a “solution” like that? Of course not.

    I think you’re misunderstanding what she’s advocating. It’s not to make Asian guys undesirable; it’s to shift our understanding of what is desirable so that more Asian guys can meet that definition without having to idealize White douchebaggery.

    But of course, Asian women (and women in general) also have to play their part too. They can’t expect us to become this new breed of men if most of them are still going to value the “traditionally” masculine men.

  193. Pozhal, you misread my post. I never said she was trying to make Asian guys undesirable. Asian guys are already seen as undesirable. I said she was trying to make it COOL for Asian guys to be seen as undesirable. She thinks that by making it cool to not have sex with women, that somehow asian guys will feel better about themselves and not feel left out. As far as your assertion here:

    “it’s to shift our understanding of what is desirable so that more Asian guys can meet that definition without having to idealize White douchebaggery.”

    First of all, that isn’t feasible. Asian guys will not all of a sudden be more attractive to women just because they meet the definition of “masculine.” Secondly, isn’t this what she’s against in the first place? How is that any different than basically telling women, “Hey, you should date the nerd or nice guy?” It’s the same basic concept in a longer, dragged out way.

  194. When I think of good actions that Asian women can take, I think of articles like this one at The Bold Italic: http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/4500-asian-male-stereotypes-complicate-my-love-life

    That article rubbed me the wrong way because her argument was that Asian male stereotypes need to stop so she can feel less guilty dating a white guy. My major pet peeve with activism is the need to make it about everyone, not just the affected group. Other examples of this behavior are articles about why men should care about misogyny because it negatively affects them, or why white people should care about racism because it negatively affects them. It’s saying the suffering of marginalized groups don’t matter; what really matters are the much, much smaller ways that privileged groups suffer because of injustice.

    To tie this back to the issue at hand, this mentality means many more people are talking about generalized misogyny in ways that center white men. (Look at all the stories about white men saying they didn’t realize misogyny was such a big deal.) Hardly anyone is bringing up the fact that this was also a hate crime against Asians, namely Asian men.

    Upon reviewing my comment, I just came to the sad realization that maybe doing the thing I hate (focusing on the privileged) is exactly the way to bring an issue to light. So maybe we need to frame anti-Asian racism in a way that makes white men seem to be the victims, and then something can finally get done.

    =(

  195. @Van

    I said she was trying to make it COOL for Asian guys to be seen as undesirable.

    Where did I say that? I’m saying that “desirable” vs. “undesirable” shouldn’t be part of our internalized definition of masculinity. I’m saying we should dig DEEPER in rejecting stereotypes of emasculated Asian American men than to simply argue that the solution to this problem is getting Asian American men more ass (or simply re-writing the stereotype of Asian American men as “asexual” with the stereotype of Asian American men as “players”).

  196. But while the UCSB shooter may have been anti-Asian male, he was still male, first and foremost. I think we’d all be in severe denial if we said that we didn’t known Asian guys who shared some degree of his mindset. Yes, most guys of all races probably go through the Angry Nice Guy stage, but I think that Asian guys probably feel it more acutely because of the gendered racism against us. The most chilling thing about reading the UCSB shooter’s manifesto is the realization that if you just take the “beautiful Eurasian” parts out, this could’ve been written by a self-loathing Asian guy and it still would’ve made perfect sense. There’s something very Asian about his need for approval by White blonde girls.

    I think what Jenn was trying to do was alarmingly acknowledge that these attitudes are likely to exist in Asian American men due to a variety of factors, one of which is the systematic emasculation of our group by American society. She used inclusive terms like “Asian American” and “we” to suggest that it is up to both Asian American men and women to change the dominant definition of masculinity so that we don’t idealize predatory and entitled behavior. You can still be masculine and not be some PUA enthusiast who only enjoys sex for the self-validation and zero-sum aspect of it (i.e. guy is the “conqueror,” and girl is the “conquered”).

    Yep, pretty much. (And actually it’s very nice to hear you write this, Pozhal — you basically got exactly what this post was attempting to do. It was not blaming Elliot Rodger on Asian American men, or even to blame Asian American men for the institution of masculinity. It is to say that Isla Vista shooting is eerily familiar and isn’t isolated to just a lone killer, and maybe we can use try and self-examine how we can stop reinforcing a system that would incubate an Elliot Rodger in his own hatred. And I mean it — I think misogylinity is the conventional masculinity that prevails over virtually all men and women. We’ve all internalized it.)

    I also want to reinforce that the conversation of progressive masculinity wasn’t invented out of whole cloth by a woman who has no idea what it’s like to have a penis. I cited Snoopy for a reason; this is a definition articulated by a man of colour.

    Perhaps a post that reflects on the findings of the report and how Asian American women can fight against it would’ve assuaged some of the complaints that many Asian guys here have had.

    Like I said, to me it’s the same post. Both our genders are complicit in internalizing White male masculinity and pursuing it. Unless you are looking for the post that is “Asian American women should reinforce Asian American men through their own sexuality and attention”, which — as, I hope you can understand — is at odds with my own asserted progressive masculinity, and furthermore at fundamental odds with my emphasis on sexual agency and choice.

    In my mind, I have written this post. If someone has internalized White male masculinity — regardless of their gender — this is the starting point for re-examining their internalized worldview. This post is speaking to women as much as it is speaking to men.

    Further Pozhal, I worry about the conflict in our goals. Do you think the goal here is to get Asian American men more women, or to work towards a more gender-equal society for both Asian American men and women? I argue the latter — that the system of institutionalized White male masculinity disadvantages both Asian American men and women in a racist and unequal way. For me, it’s to try and challenge sexism and misogyny that affects both our genders negatively. Is this your goal? If so, what is your metric of success? Mine is not, “more dates”; yet, throughout this conversation, I still wonder why our community seems to set this as our endpoint? Why do we measure victory by how easy it is for Asian American men to find a mate?

    Speaking to Van’s point, it’s not that I want Asian American men to languish in undesirability. What I want to do is correct the root institutional causes of “undesirability”, which I think will both also equalize the desirability of men and women of all races and address what I think is the oppressive consequences of the emphasis we place on the need to prove our own desirability, which only perpetuates the same system that is marginalizing our men in the first place. More substantively, if you’re a nerd who is seen as undesirable, I think we should both redefine masculinity in a manner more inclusive of nerds so that masculinity can be attainable for all men, and also de-emphasize a man’s own self-esteem based on a metric that involves winning women so that it becomes something inclusive of female sexual agency. I think (straight) women should feel free to choose (on an individual level) to associate with progressive masculinity, not be brow-beaten or shamed into it through the expectation that our sex is a political tool that should be used for the advancement of men.

  197. “Where did I say that? I’m saying that “desirable” vs. “undesirable” shouldn’t be part of our internalized definition of masculinity.”

    Exactly. And maculinity is something you think should be strived for right? And since your new definition of masculinity doesn’t include sex with women, then that means it’s now cool to not have sex no? So it’s cool now for asian men to not have sex. Meaning it’s cool if women don’t desire asian men.

  198. Rebelwerewolf,

    That article rubbed me the wrong way because her argument was that Asian male stereotypes need to stop so she can feel less guilty dating a white guy.

    Yes, I would agree with that criticism. It’s almost akin to a White guy claiming that widespread racism is bad mainly because it inconveniences him when people stereotype him as a racist. It’s a self-centered view.

    However, I do think that such articles are a step forward because at least Asian women are now seeing more of a common interest in the sexualization of Asian men, whereas before, many of them wanted nothing to do with it.

    Also, I asked the author of that article if she has dated Asian guys before and she said yes. Not that this should be a litmus test, but at least we know that she’s not just paying lip service.

  199. @RWW

    Without being catty or snarky, my experience in the trenches as an Asian American feminist is that this:

    Upon reviewing my comment, I just came to the sad realization that maybe doing the thing I hate (focusing on the privileged) is exactly the way to bring an issue to light.

    … has been the only way to get men to talk about feminism. When women talk about feminism in isolation, it reinforces this notion that feminism is about hating men and about safe spaces, and we are safely dismissed or ignored. When you talk about how misogyny negatively impacts men, it becomes controversial but at least you finally manage to get the conversation started. But on the posts I’ve written about feminism that aren’t explicitly about men and how they might benefit, I rarely get any conversation from Asian American men. Why is that? I would LOVE to have this degree of conversation from Asian American men about Asian American feminism on a post that argues about how feminism benefits women and not the dating prospects of guys.

    That’s why this post included examples of heinous misogyny, but focuses on how misogyny and misogylinity disadvantages men of colour. If this post were about how misogyny in our community disadvantages women, or if it had been nothing but the middle bit about the trollish behaviour I encounter, I think I would be accused of doing nothing but reinforcing “Joy Luck Club Feminism” by painting Asian American men as sexists. Yet, “Joy Luck Club Feminism” basically describes Asian American feminists who refuse to focus on their own narratives instead of those within our community who have the benefit of male privilege, no?

    The fact is that having privilege actually produces privilege; in this case, you either have the benefit of having most conversations revolve around you, or you have the privilege of ignoring conversations that you don’t want to engage in.

  200. So it’s cool now for asian men to not have sex. Meaning it’s cool if women don’t desire asian men.

    That’s the leap in logic of your thinking that I neither support nor argue in favour of. Sexual fetishizes for or against men of a particular race are not something I support, and have written against in the past. I argue that the fight against sexual fetishes is simply a separate conversation from what constitutes masculinity.

    Or, put another way, we should argue against sexual fetishes that disadvantage Asian American men because it is racist and morally indefensible, not so that Asian American men can have more sex with hotter women.

  201. @Anonymous

    Interesting perspective. Just so you know, misogylinity has been documented as early as the Roman Empire. The more people, male or female of all ages and sizes, a man or woman penetrated, the more masculine that person was. Its culture then spread to Western Europe where lords and knights had the right of virginity to any woman in serfdom. It continued to thrive in Britain and America until universal sufferage and rights in the 1900s. Misogylinity is not an Asian American concept. It was originated from Caucasians and introduced to Asians through the Silk Road and British Imperialism.

    Very important point, Anonymous. I’m reminded of how Europe painted African and Asian nations through gendered terms, and in particular how the sexual conquest of Asian and African women, how the lands themselves were feminized, and how the conquest of the lands and the sexual conquest of the women residing therein were viewed as ways to reinforce the masculinity of both Europe at-large and the Europe’s men specifically.

  202. “That’s the leap in logic of your thinking that I neither support nor argue in favour of.”

    You can say you don’t support it. But the fact is, your “solution” does support it. You’re basically saying that guys should be seen as masculine no matter how many women they sleep with. So asian guys who don’t sleep with a lot of women are seen as masculine by your definition.

    Think of it in this way. It’s like telling a 30 year old virgin guy, “Hey, you’re just as cool and masculine as all the other guys who are having sex.” So you’re trying to make him believe that it’s cool that women don’t want him. And you want everyone else to think this way too.

    I don’t see how you can’t realize that.

  203. I’m saying that the number of women a man sleeps with is irrelevant information, and yes, that a man can be masculine for reasons having nothing to do with his sexuality. His number of sexual conquests should be synonymous — in terms of masculinity — to the colour of his car or the haircut he chooses to wear.

    Does that mean I’m saying that single men, monogamous men, nerdy men, athletic men, and even homosexual or asexual (the sexual orientation) men can be equally masculine as the heterosexual man with ten different girls on speed-dial? Yes.

    That doesn’t mean I’m saying it’s okay for women to internalize conventional masculinity or White supremacy.

    There is nothing deficient about a 30 year old guy who is a virgin, and he shouldn’t be allowed to think that there’s something deficient about him because he hasn’t lost his virginity yet. Your mindset still assumes that virginity is something this guy should be ashamed of, and that needs to be corrected; or otherwise, that he’s not “man enough”. Your mindset still assumes that there’s something wrong with 30 year old virgin, and that he should be preoccupied with losing his virginity; or alternatively that women owe him their sex so he can lose it.

  204. “There is nothing deficient about a 30 year old guy who is a virgin, and he shouldn’t be allowed to think that there’s something deficient about him because he hasn’t lost his virginity yet. Your mindset still assumes that virginity is something this guy should be ashamed of, and that needs to be corrected; or otherwise, that he’s not “man enough”. Your mindset still assumes that there’s something wrong with 30 year old virgin, and that he should be preoccupied with losing his virginity; or alternatively that women owe him their sex so he can lose it.”

    So how are you not trying to make it cool for virgins (or asian men) to be undesirable? You’re basically agreeing with me in this very post that this is your goal.

  205. Jenn,

    Further Pozhal, I worry about the conflict in our goals. Do you think the goal here is to get Asian American men more women, or to work towards a more gender-equal society for both Asian American men and women? I argue the latter — that the system of institutionalized White male masculinity disadvantages both Asian American men and women in a racist and unequal way. For me, it’s to try and challenge sexism and misogyny that affects both our genders negatively. Is this your goal? If so, what is your metric of success? Mine is not, “more dates”; yet, throughout this conversation, I still wonder why our community seems to set this as our endpoint? Why do we measure victory by how easy it is for Asian American men to find a mate?

    Certainly, if Asian men gradually face less discrimination in their romantic lives, that would be one definite metric of success.

    It’s not that the whole goal of the movement is to make sure that Will or Joe or I have an easier time picking up girls or something. It’s just that the interracial disparity is such a potent symptom of all the problems that beset the Asian American community; if we can right the ship, then the gap should eventually narrow to the point where most Asians don’t notice it. Think of the status of Asian men as a canary in the coal mine.

    Like you, I also believe that all this will come about organically if we ask the right questions and take the right actions. I see it working on a micro level with me and my Asian male friends. We just need to make it a more widespread thing.

  206. Van,

    I think you’re conflating the idea of “man-whoreism” (for lack of a better term) with masculine virility. We don’t live in a world of extremes where guys are either celibate priests or sex addicts whose self-esteem is directly proportional with the number of different women they’ve slept with.

  207. Hey guys,

    Since you guys are hanging out and having a conversation here already, do me a favour?: I was just notified by my host that the site is having some server issues and they asked me to install some caching software to help speed things up. Since you’re basically already on the site and already responsive here, please let me know if you encounter any problems (hang times, load times, broken appearance) with the site. Thanks!

    Also, of course, apologies if there are any issues you encounter. It’s basically new software on the server side, and I’m not sure what issues I might encounter.

  208. Awesome, thanks Van! If everything is working correctly, the site should be loading from your browser cache, increasing load times upon repeat visits.

  209. @Pozhal

    I appreciate that it is difficult for Asian American men to pick up women, and that it is both a symbol of stereotypes and how life can feel unfair, but is it not still symbolic? While I would like life to be easier for you and Will or Joe or you, I would rather we set our sights on goals that can result in reduced racism in sexual behaviour as a consequence of our actions, not the endpoint or metric of success itself. Especially since, as we’re discussing, the “canary in the coal mine” is both complicated by factors having nothing to do with race and is also itself based on a heterosexist and misogynist framework (women as commodities). I agree completely with you about the idea of organic improvement, and like I said, in my ideal world, this would be one of the many outcomes of a more gender-equal and progressive society, but I think it’s a question of emphasis and priority. I’d rather undermine the root causes of how our currently ideas about masculinity and sexuality create an unfair system for Will and Joe and you and everyone else, and how the system itself demands examination.

    What if we just stopped judging everyone — ourselves included — based on how easy it is to pick up members of the opposite sex? It doesn’t mean we can’t be good at it, and/or work to combat sexual stereotypes, while still saying it shouldn’t matter so much for masculinity and self-esteem. I mean, what if there’s a person out there who is gay or asexual (as a sexual orientation) — is that man by definition less masculine than straight men? What if a guy is shy, socially awkward, or just doesn’t like the casual hook-up environment? Should he be considered less masculine because he’s only had one girlfriend?

    Race stereotypes profoundly affect all of our lives, not just in the dating scene. So why do we — as Asian Americans — focus so heavily on making it easier for straight men to pick up women? Why must this be the framework through which we can energize Asian American men to activism, particularly since we have so much documented evidence of Asian American men experiencing stereotypes that impact all avenues of life, such as job attainment, bamboo ceilings, police brutality, racial profiling, immigration, etc?

  210. So why do we — as Asian Americans — focus so heavily on making it easier for straight men to pick up women?

    Correction: “why do Asian American men — focus so heavily on making it easier for straight men to pick up women?” Don’t pretend Asian women are invested at all in the status of Asian men. Frankly, they have an interest in ensuring Asian men continue to have a low status so they have a fallback option in case they can’t get a white partner.

    And frankly the same could be said about Asian American feminism. Why do they focus so heavily on stopping people from criticizing their choice of partners? Aren’t there more important issues out there, such as the pay gap and sex trafficking? Asian women get criticized on their decision to date whites, and that sucks for them. But why do they expect Asian men to care? It doesn’t affect them personally, and it’s the same reason Asian women don’t care about the status of Asian men. It doesn’t affect them personally.

    And the answer to your question is because sex is important to the overwhelming majority of men, not because of “masculinity,” but because it is an animal instinct. They are pursuing their own interests. The things you talked about aren’t even close in importance to the average Asian man. Asian men job attainment and job promotion isn’t perfect but good enough for most men. The claims about police brutality is laughable. There is no systemic police brutality against Asian men and they aren’t disproportionately targeted, unlike black men. They are underrepresented in jails too. Racial profiling is mostly an inconvenience, and immigration mainly affects immigrants. Sex and the desire for sex affects almost all men.

    If you think “redefining masculinity” will result in a large portion of Asian men suddenly discovering that they are actually asexual and it was actually the patriarchy making them desire women, then good luck.

  211. Jenn,

    Race stereotypes profoundly affect all of our lives, not just in the dating scene. So why do we — as Asian Americans — focus so heavily on making it easier for straight men to pick up women?

    As I said, it would be just be one of the tell-tale metrics of progress. It deserves to be a visible priority because everybody is affected by the desire to find partners and relationships. Not all of us will run into bamboo ceilings. Not all of us will be arrested by the police. Not all of us are immigrants. But all of us are going to try to find romantic fulfillment in one way or another.

    I wonder if this is simply due to a deep chasm in the experiences of Asian American men and women. Is this a moment akin to when a White person asks a minority, “Why does everything have to be about race?” If you’re asking me why everything has to be about dating, all I can say that is that you have to know what it’s like to be an Asian guy in America.

    Also, you do have to acknowledge the paradox of asking Asian American men to lead in redefining masculinity when we are not seen as representatives of masculinity in the first place. To put it another way, it’s almost like asking a person with no street cred to somehow take over gangsta rap.

    I am all for Asian guys taking charge on progressive measures, but you are still basically asking one of the most de-privileged male groups to somehow start a revolution.

  212. Is this a moment akin to when a White person asks a minority, “Why does everything have to be about race?”

    Come on, Pozhal, that’s pretty uncharitable. I think this debate — which is one of the more constructive ones I’ve had on this topic — doesn’t need to resort to questioning people’s mindsets or motives here. Let’s at least take on faith that both of us here have the best interests of Asian Americans at heart here, and not insinuate that one of us is trying to just blanket dismiss?

    Not all of us will run into bamboo ceilings. Not all of us will be arrested by the police. Not all of us are immigrants. But all of us are going to try to find romantic fulfillment in one way or another.

    Like I said, it’s not like I don’t understand the issue and why it is deeply personal to you. But why set it as the one of the most important symbolic — or possibly actual –sociopolitical goal, when 60% of our community is still first-generation, 15-20% are still living in poverty, and 70% of Asian Americans are employed. I don’t advocate for us to disregard the issue entirely, I advocate for us to expand our scope, and make it part of a larger conversation on stereotypes and Asian American empowerment. Why must dating — of all possible lenses — be the primary framework through which we challenge white supremacy (which is indeed, the common purpose here) — particularly given the implicit heterosexism, and commodification of female sexuality associated?

    And to be honest, the “because you’re not an Asian guy, you can’t know” argument isn’t particularly convincing, and extremely off-putting. It seems to me that you’re basically arguing that this is the last major frontier of racism that Asian men face, and if we don’t address this, Asian American men are meaningfully disadvantaged beyond the impacts of race and racism on job status, on education status, on immigration status, or access to other basic civil rights. Forgive me, but isn’t this basically the “incel” argument — that racism leads to Asian men being en masse involuntarily celibate, hence the motivation to center this issue of all issues?

    Like I said, I don’t mean to be snarky: is your fear that anti-Asian racial stereotypes are hindering sexual relationships you otherwise feel that, as a man, you are entitled to?

    Also, you do have to acknowledge the paradox of asking Asian American men to lead in redefining masculinity when we are not seen as representatives of masculinity in the first place.

    Actually, the history of America is full of the marginalized redefining institutions for the majority. Voting rights and ending Jim Crow was taken up as a cause by African American civil rights leaders. The 1965 Immigration act rose out of advocacy by immigrants. Reparations for Japanese American internment came out of the advocacy of former detainees. We have never waited for the (White, heterosexual, male) mainstream to hand over a more just society; we have always agitated to change it from the margins. This is absolutely an opportunity for Asian American men, and all men and women of colour, to take the lead and create a more inclusive and holistic masculinity; I actually think there’s something noble and (dare I say) masculine about the idea of men (and women) asserting a new idea here.

    you are still basically asking one of the most de-privileged male groups to somehow start a revolution.

    Like I said, I’m asking for all of us to do it. I’m not removing complicity from women, Asian American women included. For me, this post was gender-neutral in the prescriptive part; we all need to do better about examining our internalized white supremacist and misogynist ideas of masculinity.

  213. More specifically:

    As I said, it would be just be one of the tell-tale metrics of progress.

    Yet, something like 60-70% of Asian American men are married, and this (if memory serves) is higher than in the national population. If our metric of success for racial equality is supposed to be the degree to which Asian American men are finding mates and reproducing, than aren’t we already succeeding?

    Also, a little something I wanted to pick up on:

    but you are still basically asking one of the most de-privileged male groups to somehow start a revolution.

    Men of colour regardless of race are deprivileged by gender stereotypes of masculinity. I don’t think we should play oppression olympics here.

  214. I agree with Van, you can play with semantics and prop up peoples self esteem all you want, but most men I know who are over 18 and still a virgin are not happy about it. And that has nothing to do with “masculinity” or any other silly collection of virtues we cobble together. But look at it this way, at least you don’t live in China or India, where there are over 20 million more men of marrying age than women. I would not want to be a woman or baby girl in Asia, and I would not want to be an adult male living outside of major cities in Asia. We live in America, which, aside from all the grandstanding, moral indignation, conflation, entitlement, self pity, and finger pointing, is actually a pretty good place to live. See? Always a silver lining.

  215. most men I know who are over 18 and still a virgin are not happy about it.

    Why?

    I mean it, specifically – why?

  216. Didn’t you study biology in school? The purpose of all life is self propagation. Every behavior we have is based in one of two agendas: Self preservation or maximizing quality/quantity of mating opportunities/offspring. Biology doesn’t care about your words. Biology doesn’t care about your labels. Biology doesn’t care about your ideals. Biology cares about surviving. Not surviving over one generation, but surviving forever. Sexual deprivation during your viable mating years is equivalent to starvation, dehydration, constipation, and even a little bit like suffocation. Until that urge is addressed, it will consume you. Why? Because we are animals with genetic programming, not heavenly ordained intellectual masters of the universe.

  217. why?

    Flip it around, there’s a 30 year old female virgin that no wants to touch with an umbrella. She’s at home feeding her 15 cats and knitting socks for her friends triplets.

    Why is she sad? I mean it….

  218. Humans were evolved to live in nomadic groups of roughly 150 people, mostly relatives, and be in close physical, social, and intimate emotional contact with people of all ages, young and old. Everything we did was a feedback loop, a cause and effect, with our surrounding natural environment. Now we segregate ourselves in cubicles, rooms, and houses, or surround ourselves with an endless steam of strangers in cities or online. We are either physically alone or alone in a see of strangers. Nothing we do is natural anymore. Processed food, artificial light, internet porn, cars, air conditioning etc etc etc. Personally, I am lucky if I get out of work in time to see the sun set. the problems with Elliot Rodgers are bigger than misogyny. They are about isolation in an ever crowding world. He was teased, bullied, humiliated, and ridiculed by peers. He was abandoned, and judged and undermined by his father, sister, best friend, and step mother. Is he a victim? No. He is wrong. Everyone has it tough and everyone has their crosses to bear. You shouldn’t take it out on others. But he certainly was not put in a position to trust others enough to relate to or connect with them. We are social animals, even introverts, and we all compensate for our unfufilled natural urges. A 30 year old woman with 15 cats who knits for a friend’s babies is clearly showing a desire for connection and intimacy, the kind that comes from being surrounded by extended family and children. Instead she gets that intimacy from her pets.

  219. Jenn, you’re really being serious with that question? Guys like sex. That’s why. It doesn’t matter if it’s seen as masculine or not. They want sex. And beyond that, like Yun Xu said, it applies to everyone. Humans want to be loved. The same applies to women.

    “I think (straight) women should feel free to choose (on an individual level) to associate with progressive masculinity, not be brow-beaten or shamed into it through the expectation that our sex is a political tool that should be used for the advancement of men.”

    You say women should feel free to choose. But your solution calls for women to change their views on what masculinity is. That’s not a choice then. You want women to view masculinity differently. Given the right to choose, I’m telling you right now, no woman is going to choose to see a 30 year old virgin as masculine.

  220. @Yun

    Flip it around, there’s a 30 year old female virgin that no wants to touch with an umbrella. She’s at home feeding her 15 cats and knitting socks for her friends triplets.

    Or, maybe she actually has a completely fulfilled life without sex. She could have a fabulous career, lots of friends, and really just hasn’t had the time or interest to deal with a sexual relationship? Maybe all the guys she’s met don’t understand her love of cats and socks. Maybe she’s busy helping her friend babysit triplets.

    The gender switch doesn’t mean anything to me, Yun. You keep assuming I have some axe to grind against men or are only capable of empathizing with women. You can’t seem to grasp that my issue really is this assumption that sexual acceptance is the only way to happiness and fulfillment, and that virgins should internalize some sort of personal deficiency for the crime of being a virgin.

  221. You say women should feel free to choose. But your solution calls for women to change their views on what masculinity is. That’s not a choice then. You want women to view masculinity differently.

    I’m asking women and men to have the conversation with me. I’m not a supervillain — I can’t force anyone to do anything, nor do I want to.

  222. @Peter

    I’m a biologist. We also have the biological urge to beat people to death for taking our last granola bar. Yet, somehow, we prevail.

  223. Jenn, of course you don’t have the power to force anyone to do anything. But you are trying to change their minds. How exactly is that any different than someone saying, “Women don’t date nice guys. All they do is date a-holes. They need to give nice guys a shot.”

    It’s not any different. The only difference is, you’re not explicitly saying, “Women should date nice guys.” You’re all but implying it though. Asking women to change their views which would then lead them to “seeing the light” and dating nice guys is pretty much the same thing. Only dressed up differently.

  224. Talking about it endlessly won’t change reality. Access to mating opportunities has always been a primary driving force behind most male behavior, human or otherwise. And just because you or other enlightened women and men consider yourself intellectually evolved to be above your baser instincts doesn’t mean the world is. Look around the world: In Africa, rape, genocide, and genital mutilation is common. In Asia, female infanticide, public gang rape and kidnapping women for forced marriage is common. In the Middle East, throwing acid at women, and stoning them to death are common. In South America, domestic violence and rape are common. Misogyny and the desire to dominate are everywhere. Its essentially the same conversation every time we talk about changing humanity’s behavior. On an individual level, we can change. And you, Jenn, will probably change a lot of people’s minds for the better. But as a species as a whole, we cannot. Weather its global warming, or pollution, or overpopulation, or war, or subjugation of large groups of people, we all KNOW we should change. But we never do. And we never will, until reality forces us to. We are a virus with delusions of grandeur.

  225. @Van

    It’s not any different. The only difference is, you’re not explicitly saying, “Women should date nice guys.” You’re all but implying it though. Asking women to change their views which would then lead them to “seeing the light” and dating nice guys is pretty much the same thing. Only dressed up differently.

    It’s different because I’m explicitly trying to disconnect dating and sexuality from our ideas of masculinity.

  226. “maybe she actually has a completely fulfilled life without sex”

    >>>Why aren’t there more fulfilled people living JUST LIKE THIS? Why are these “fulfilled people” almost always unattractive/weird?

    “We also have the biological urge to beat people to death for taking our last granola bar. Yet, somehow, we prevail.”

    >>>Remember the anarchy during hurricane katrina and other disasters? or is that “anecdotal evidence”?

    “I’m explicitly trying to disconnect dating and sexuality from our ideas of masculinity.”

    >>>You sound like extreme feminists who tell obese women, “You go girl! You’re a full FEMININE woman.”

    Meanwhile, no man (with options) would touch her.

  227. Looks like I missed out on the party and there’s like 100+ posts that I just skimmed through…

    Somebody wrote a rhetorical question above about name a society where men don’t pursue women and sex and I have the perfect example: Japan.

    Japan is facing a population crisis right now because of the high expenses and growing numbers of men shun women and sex and become “hikikomori.”

    Not too surprisingly, guess who’s making up for this lack of sexual enthusiasm by Japanese men? You can find tons of “sexpats” roaming the bar districts – the same as for other Asian countries.

    And this ties in to the comment that I want to state about Jenn Fang and Pozhal and his refutation of the “Joy Luck Club feminism” – since the infamous Korean video of the Korean girl sexually and verbally assaulted by white sexpats hasn’t gotten ANY criticisms by the likes of “certain feminists” like Pheonix Tso who seem to give white men the proverbial “blind eye.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh9NonsB6V0

    Also, remember that recent Chicago incidence where the AF was assaulted by the police who are mostly white and black men? There’s nary a peep about it on “certain blogs” (I’m afraid to say the name lest I get banned) of white male sexism and racism.

    In other websites where we “crazy MMers loser militant virgins” we go in depth about the racism white males perpetuate against Asian females, but other blogs just ignore them; therefore there’s no doubt in my mind there’s a real mental construct of “Joy Luck Club feminism.”

  228. Also, notice the trolling antics of “Peter” (who’s probably a white male) and the racist comments he can state without any threat of being banned – where he probably violates quite a few “forum rules” as stated several times even on this thread…

  229. What is masculinity? Coming back to these comments make me disappointed in my fellow Asian comrades. Masculinity is not defined as your sexual exploits. Masculinity is not defined as the number of complaints you write on anonymous forums. Masculinity is not defined as trying to convince women to think one way over another.

    Look back in time for truly great Asian men: Cao Cao, Nobunaga, and Yi Sun-sin. These men were not defined as manly by the number of sexual exploits they had, though they did have many. These men were defined for their achievements in struggling through chaotic times and coming out on top. Do we hear them complaining? No! Their actions spoke and continue to speak for themselves. They did not chase women. Women chased them.

    I don’t usually waste time discussing these trivial issues, but reading deeper into the Elliot Rodger case indicated something wrong with the Asian American culture. While most women have sex with losers (which is something very wrong with American feminist movement), at the end of the day women need to be successful or marry someone successful. Those who reserve their judgment and stick with the natural order of things will most likely have additional offspring. Those who have sex with the unemployed, minimum waged, and boy-toys will face Darwinist extinction–unless done en masse, which fortunately has not spread to the rest of the world as this phenomenon is largely isolated in the United States.

    Too short? Look at Tom Cruise. He’s short but he made the best of it.
    Asian looking? Look at South Korea who have made Asianness a media commodity.
    Small penis? Look at sexual techniques–because at the end of the moment it’s going to depend on whether you can make her feel good.

    Though I am Asian, I can’t say that I fit into the common Asian American stereotype. But it is a huge disappointment and dishonor to find fellow Asian men blaming others for something that is their own fault. You are the master of your own destiny. You determine and shape how others view you. And if you still face injustice after ALL reasonable alternatives have been eliminated (i.e. not being insane, defined by Albert Einstein as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results), you do what needs to be done.

    Luckily, those African American men hit it spot on and continue the legacy:

    [Disregard women, acquire currency] – Notorious B.I.G.

    “You lose money chasing women, [but you] never lose women chasing money.” – Rich Boy Ft. Lil Wayne & Nas

  230. Jenn

    In my mind, this changing of our definition explicitly delinks masculinity with sexuality…….I think the delinking needs to happen for all men, not just Asian American men, but that the conversation is of particular relevance for our community precisely because our political priority is the pursuit of masculinity


    I think it has to be said that using sexuality as a means and/or expression of empowerment is a phenomenon that has been embraced by both Asian men and women – ironically, possibly more by Asian-American women than men.

    Asian-American feminists have put forward their choice of dating and choice to be explicitly sexual as both a means to specifically challenge Asian male criticisms of their dating choices and a means to “embrace” and “own” the definition of their own racialized sexuality and right for sexual self-discovery. In other words, empowerment through sexuaity on their own terms – if they want to be hyper-sexual then that is their choice, if they want to fetishize and date exclusively white men, that is their choice, and if they want to be monogamous with men or other women, that is their choice too. It goes that Asian female empowerment is in part about living their own lives in the way that they have chosen for themselves. I have seen few – very few – criticisms of this expression of feminist empowerment.

    In that light, how is it not repressive to seek to limit the manner and ways that Asian men can express their sexuality, when Asian women are themselves citing repressiveness as the justification for their choice to utilize sexuality as a means of empowerment?

    Also, I’m surprised that no-one has brought this up – I can’t be the only person on this thread who has had casual sex! – but there is, in fact, a culture of easy pick-up and casual sexual encounters in which both male and female participants happily consent. There are plenty of bars and night-clubs with “meat-market” reputations where guys and gals show up with their friends knowing that the casual hook-up is a strong possibility. I have been to bars – not dives or sleazy, grubby, establishments – where as soon as they turn off the music and turn up the lights you literally have dozens of men and women milling around trying to make that last-minute hook-up. College bars in college town all over the country are notorious for the hook-up culture.

    The point is that this idea of conquest sexuality being an abhorration is overly simplistic. What I am trying to get at is that seeking sex with multiple partners is not implicitly bad – or at least you have not shown it to be so. As I pointed out, a lot of promiscuity is consensual, and promiscuity culture is consensual too. Outside of the hook-up club scene, there is the consensual casual-sex friend (or fuck-buddy). I just think that you have made what is basically a moral judgement on Asian men who pursue casual sexual encounters when there are many situations where pursuing casual hook-ups is welcomed and consensual.

  231. @ Jenn, @ Van (pardon the instrusion in this convo)

    “It’s different because I’m explicitly trying to disconnect dating and sexuality from our ideas of masculinity.”

    Following the same logic, shouldnt we as a community attempt to disconnect sexuality from femininity as well, with women taking the initiative and men having the option of individual participation? I imagine this would entail the rejection of women wearing makeup, heels, etc.; basically anything to attract men. To Van’s point, we end up with the same implication – men should date nice women because theyre nice. How many guys will jump on that boat? Dating based completely on ‘niceness’ – sounds….nice…? but a bit idealistic don’t you agree? My point is it’s impossible to extricate sexuality from the constructs of masculinity and femininity, and pointless to redefine only one since they affect eachother.

    @ Jenn

    “I disagree that liberation of female sexuality could remove the misogyny of the misogylinity mindset, but if you disagree, make the argument.”

    These comments are moving so fast, hard to keep up so congrats, a lot of great discussion here. Going back to this point, I argued that validation via sexual conquest isnt racist nor hetero-sexist. Is it even nessecarily misogynist? I see the argument that it objectifies and commoditizes women, but I think it’s overreaching to imply that men aspire to own female sexuality (a particular woman’s or in general); I think more realisticly the impulse is merely to attain the act itself (getting a date,having sex, etc). Sure it may be shallow and distasteful to objectify, commoditize and compare in this way, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s any implied hatred. It’s unfortunate, but society will always seek out quantifiable measurements of achievement because without them, definitions (like @snoopy’s) become too abstract and nebulous to be helpful. We are social animals that require interaction and as such we define ourselves in relation to others. Sexual conquest is used as relevant measure of validation by nearly every group across race, class, and orientation with one glaring exception: straight women have been excluded from participating due to entrenched societal attitudes toward female promiscuity and manifestations of it such as slut-shaming. From this standpoint, liberalizing female sexuality would flatten this inequity by dismantling traditional patriarchal notions. It would probably alleviate current issues of fetishization in the process. Perhaps its not (Asian American) men that should be reappropriating masculinity, but in fact quite the opposite. I’m no expert on this subject so I won’t attempt to delve any deeper but it is a viable alternative. I’m merely pointing out that sexuality in masculinity is not the problem that we should be looking to address or eliminate. The misogynistic undertones so often entangled in these conversations have deeper darker roots, and while I agree that they should be addressed, they are separate from the definitions of masculinity.

  232. Jenn.

    Come on, Pozhal, that’s pretty uncharitable. I think this debate — which is one of the more constructive ones I’ve had on this topic — doesn’t need to resort to questioning people’s mindsets or motives here. Let’s at least take on faith that both of us here have the best interests of Asian Americans at heart here, and not insinuate that one of us is trying to just blanket dismiss?

    I wasn’t questioning your motives. I used that analogy because often, White people have very good intentions that are still skewed by the fact that they just don’t know what it’s like to not be White. I was wondering if some Asian women will just not understand where we’re coming from on this issue because they’ve never felt de-sexualized because of their race. In stark contrast, many Black women often greatly empathize with what Asian men have to say.

    And to be honest, the “because you’re not an Asian guy, you can’t know” argument isn’t particularly convincing, and extremely off-putting.

    I’m sorry if it’s off-putting, but it is fact. Just like how I won’t ever really know what it’s like to be an Asian woman, you can’t know what it’s like to be an Asian man. It’s not strictly confined to gender though because as I said before, Black women are often empathetic to how Asian men feel.

    Asian American men are meaningfully disadvantaged beyond the impacts of race and racism on job status, on education status, on immigration status, or access to other basic civil rights.

    I agree that there are other important issues. The thing is that if we live in a world where there is less desexualization of Asian men, then a lot of these other issues such as the bamboo ceiling will likely disappear too because they’re all intertwined. I just think that the dating metric is an easy one to measure because all Asian men experience it in their everyday lives.

    But other metrics are very important as well. And I never said that the dating aspect has to be the main objective. It seems to me that you’re concerned that if it’s considered at all, then it’ll preoccupy everybody, especially the men. Perhaps that’s an issue we have to address, but simply ignoring a very important issue that affects the everyday lives of so many people in our community is the wrong way to go about it.

    Like I said, I don’t mean to be snarky: is your fear that anti-Asian racial stereotypes are hindering sexual relationships you otherwise feel that, as a man, you are entitled to?

    I don’t feel entitled to sexual relationships; I just feel entitled to being given a fair shot given what I have to bring to the table as a potential boyfriend/husband. If I am rude, dirty, ugly, and short, then reject me because I am rude, dirty, ugly, and short. Don’t reject me because I’m “Asian.”

    Actually, the history of America is full of the marginalized redefining institutions for the majority.

    I never said that the marginalized never lead revolutions. I said that you’re asking us to bear a great risk and burden, one that I would love Asian guys to take a lead on because we’re always seen as supporting cast, if even that. My question is whether women, especially Asian women, will actually support us. It’s hard to change people’s preferences and make them go against established societal expectations.

  233. Jenn,

    Yet, something like 60-70% of Asian American men are married, and this (if memory serves) is higher than in the national population. If our metric of success for racial equality is supposed to be the degree to which Asian American men are finding mates and reproducing, than aren’t we already succeeding?

    If those stats are right, then where are they finding wives? It’s hardly equal if American-born Asian men have to “flee” their home countries because of discrimination and marry foreign Asian women.

    I have nothing against Asian-Asian women and I have dated and would date them again. But if a significant number of Asian men are having to find partners abroad, then that’s like saying that racism doesn’t exist in America because a Black person can go to Jamaica and be treated very nicely there.

    Moreover, if you go ask any non-Asian guy if they’d want to be re-born as an Asian American guy and they had to be perfectly honest, the vast majority would probably and instantly say no.

    Men of colour regardless of race are deprivileged by gender stereotypes of masculinity. I don’t think we should play oppression olympics here.

    We are all de-privileged in unique ways that merit a specialized examination. I wasn’t trying to play “oppression olympics” as much as I was trying to highlight that in the area of defining masculinity, Asian men have relatively little clout and credibility. As I said before, I think it’d be great for Asian guys to lead the charge, but it’d be like asking a small agrarian country to spearhead climate change reform while ignoring the U.S. and China.

  234. You people are still going around in circles. Like I wrote above like 300+ posts ago: if AM has no rights to dictate to AF how to think and feel because AM has no “ownership” of AF (like some bad Kingston-Hong book where “woman” is the same as “slave” in Chinese), then AF certainly has no right to tell AMs how to think and feel – it’s simply being consistent without double standards.

    As for the whole “IR disparity,” it’s real as a social aggregate phenomenon and several WF sociologists have written extensively on it, as somebody already linked above. On an individual level nobody can criticize people’s “choice” but when it comes to the broader US society’s racism and sexism then plenty has already been stated and people are entitled to speak out against it.

    It’s simple as that.

  235. @Pozhal

    If those stats are right, then where are they finding wives? It’s hardly equal if American-born Asian men have to “flee” their home countries because of discrimination and marry foreign Asian women.

    Asian-Nation has done an analysis that gets at this question. USR+FR is when a spouse is US-raised, and spouse can be either US- or foreign-raised, USR only is when both spouses are US-raised. A comparison of population size between both columns will give you an estimate of the size of marriages of US-raised Asians that are USR + FR (so, the last rowumn) in each col. What you see is a relatively insignificant difference between USR and USR+FR vs USR and USR columns, indicating that the majority of US-raised Asians are marrying US-raised Asian spouses. Also, there isn’t much gender disparity, either (i.e. men and women are marrying US-born spouses at roughly equally rates).

    Take-home message: there isn’t any evidence of a widespread trend Asian men “fleeing” the country to take foreign-born Asian wives, due to racism or for any other racism.

    . I wasn’t trying to play “oppression olympics” as much as I was trying to highlight that in the area of defining masculinity, Asian men have relatively little clout and credibility. As I said before, I think it’d be great for Asian guys to lead the charge, but it’d be like asking a small agrarian country to spearhead climate change reform while ignoring the U.S. and China.

    As I wrote in my previous comment, I think US history has demonstrated that marginalized groups are actually in the best position to make social change. When’s the last time the mainstream just up and decided to change an oppressive status quo? You’re the one who assumes Asian men have no power or privilege here; I think Asian men have male privilege, as well as membership and stake in popular definitions of masculinity, and are in particularly good position to assert that privilege in changing masculinity.

  236. My question is whether women, especially Asian women, will actually support us.

    I would support a revolution that changes progressive masculinity. And I’m also a woman.

    Don’t reject me because I’m “Asian.”

    Just a gripe but: on an individual level, if you’re trying to flirt with a person who actually would reject you because you’re Asian, what makes you think they wouldn’t reject you for any other superficial reason as well? That person is clearly a superficial asshole who judges people based on appearances anyways; take away their White supremacy, and they’ll still judge you based on you being short or ugly, or they don’t like your haircut or the beer you’re drinking, or any other completely irrelevant piece of information. That’s not any better. That person is a superficial jerk.

    Isn’t it possible that in the dating “game”, we tend to generalize our experiences with superficial assholes, and assume their individual issues are indicative of larger issues when those individual people are just not worth anyone’s time? A person who accepts or rejects potential mates because of race is racist. Period.

    Why internalize the behaviour of racists?

  237. Asian-American feminists have put forward their choice of dating and choice to be explicitly sexual as both a means to specifically challenge Asian male criticisms of their dating choices and a means to “embrace” and “own” the definition of their own racialized sexuality and right for sexual self-discovery.

    True, but sex-positive feminists do not link sex-positiveness with their self-identity as feminine (i.e., sex-positive feminists do not assert that it is positive to say “I am more feminine based on the hotness of my male partners” or “I am a failure because I don’t have a male sexual partner”). In fact, I am actually taking ideas from sex-positive feminism here: the idea is that a woman’s sexuality does not define a woman’s identity, and that it is completely okay for a woman to choose be asexual or hypersexual, and not have it impact her “value” as a woman because her womanhood is defined internally, and not by her sexual partnering.

    Also, Asian American sex-positive feminists are not having sex to “stick it to the Asian American man”. Cuz, sometimes it’s really not all about men.

    In that light, how is it not repressive to seek to limit the manner and ways that Asian men can express their sexuality, when Asian women are themselves citing repressiveness as the justification for their choice to utilize sexuality as a means of empowerment?

    Where, oh where, did I say I wanted to limit the degree to which Asian American men seek sex with multiple partners?

    What I am trying to get at is that seeking sex with multiple partners is not implicitly bad – or at least you have not shown it to be so.

    Yeesh, guys, I’m not saying sex is bad. I’m not saying wanting sex is bad. I’m not saying sex-positiveness is bad. I’m saying the number of partners you have, and the quality of those partners should not predominantly define manhood (or womanhood). I’m saying masculinity shouldn’t be defined by sexuality, because a system that links masculinity with sexuality commodifies sex and sexual partners. Having a bunch of consensual sex because you want to explore your sexuality is fabulous; enjoy your sexuality, but let that be a separate idea from your self-worth as a gendered man or woman.

    It’s like y’all think I want to start an abstinence circle or something.

    Tl;dr – My argument is not: don’t have a bunch of sex. My argument is: it’s your choice how much sex you want to have, and whatever your decision, it has nothing to do with how manly you are.

  238. Jenn wrote

    What you see is a relatively insignificant difference between USR and USR+FR vs USR and USR columns, indicating that the majority of US-raised Asians are marrying US-raised Asian spouses. Also, there isn’t much gender disparity, either (i.e. men and women are marrying US-born spouses at roughly equally rates).

    Are we even looking at the same data? check the Filipino American, Korean American and Vietnamese American numbers and it’s VERY lopsided in terms of the females marrying white males and relative to their total population numbers. All of those communities’ American women are marrying USR white males more than USR Asian Americans.

    The Chinese American data can be explained for large recent waves of immigrants. Japanese Americans I’m not sure about, but they’ve already went through their heyday of “assimilation.”

    The only “insignificant difference” might be that for Indians.

    And let’s not even talk about “IR dating”…

  239. I agree with the author that sexual experience should not be such a defining aspect Masculinity and Femininity and self worth. I also know that debating those definitions won’t change mens’ relentless hunger for sexual experience and the resentment that comes from not fulfilling that hunger. There are two conversations going on that are being conflated into one. Whats also is worth pointing out is that Elliot Rodger’s story, if you listen to accounts from his family, friends, therapists, school administrators, classmates, and aquaintances, is that this is a story primarily one of mental illness. Its not really about sex or race or misogyny or masculinity. If Elliot Rodger had been 100% White or 100% Asian or American or something else, it would not have mattered. He had a weak grasp on reality, suffered crippling anxiety, and did not have the emotional tools he needed to relate to other human beings, even his own family. He spent his whole existence blaming anyone he could for his problems. If he had been born a different race in a different country, he would have just blamed a different problem on a different group of people and acted out in anger. It doesn’t matter what color your car is, if it has no brakes, you are going to crash.

  240. Are we even looking at the same data? check the Filipino American, Korean American and Vietnamese American numbers and it’s VERY lopsided in terms of the females marrying white males and relative to their total population numbers. All of those communities’ American women are marrying USR white males more than USR Asian Americans.

    That wasn’t the purpose of why the data were cited. Pozhal asserted that most Asian American men were marrying foreign women.

    Also, just to put it out there, Filipino, Korean and Vietnamese American communities have large population sizes in majority-White states like South Carolina.

    Also, are we really asserting there’s a significant different between 37.2 and 36.7?


  241. True, but sex-positive feminists do not link sex-positiveness with their self-identity as feminine (i.e., sex-positive feminists do not assert that it is positive to say “I am more feminine based on the hotness of my male partners” or “I am a failure because I don’t have a male sexual partner”).


    So what? Are you saying that empowerment through sexuality for Asian women has no link to their identity that would be less empowered were they to fail?

    Plus the implication of what you wrote is that sexual empowerment through multiple partners can be a healthy and positive endeavour as long as Asian men don’t attach it to masculinity?
    Get laid for its own sake is fair game, just don’t get all cocky about it?

    the idea is that a woman’s sexuality does not define a woman’s identity


    That just is not true, I would suggest that there are many women for whom their sexual prowess is a hugely defining factor in who they are – it could just be that if a woman is sexually confident, her chances of failing to find a partner are far less than let’s say a man’s might be.Maybe that could help to explain why women don’t seem to have the same hang-ups as men when it comes to the possibility of failing to find a sexual partner.

    Also, in the hook-up culture I mentioned, women do begin to question themselves, their looks, and place in the world if guys (or girls) don’t pay attention to them, so I am not entirely convinced that stifled sexuality in women has no repercussions in their sense of self.

    Also, Asian American sex-positive feminists are not having sex to “stick it to the Asian American man”.


    I’m not so sure. Some might.

    Where, oh where, did I say I wanted to limit the degree to which Asian American men seek sex with multiple partners?


    Where did I say you were saying that? I’m saying that an assertion of sexual power has been almost the defining factor for Asian-American feminists – at least within the community – so why should an assertive Asian male sexuality be de-linked from their empowerment? If an Asian guy does a good job of respectfully taking care of the ladies and he changes a few misperceptions of Asian men, has he done a bad thing to feel good about it?

    I’m saying masculinity shouldn’t be defined by sexuality, because a system that links masculinity with sexuality commodifies sex and sexual partners. Having a bunch of consensual sex because you want to explore your sexuality is fabulous; enjoy your sexuality, but let that be a separate idea from your self-worth as a gendered man or woman.


    This is where you are losing me. Sexuality and masculinity (or femininity) co-exist within the framework of someone’s identity, and there are also plenty of other factors that contribute to a man’s masculine identity, and if any one of those qualities are skewed, then sometimes in the correct circumstances people devolve into sickness. For example, James put forward assertiveness as a masculine trait and some men whose sense of assertive power has been compromised resort to violence. By your reasoning, we should separate assertiveness from a man’s masculine identity – see the flaw? You can take any quality and find a potential downside to it but for some reason Asian male sexual empowerment is the one quality that is keeping you awake at night.

    In the case of Rodger, I think that it is entirely presumptuous to suggest that he might not have killed if he did not tie his sexuality into his masculinity. He had been emasculated on any number of counts in his life – in fact take almost all of James’ list of masculine traits and you will see that Rodger’s masculinity had been compromised on most of them. The fact that he focused on his sexuality does not mean that this compromising on many levels did not play an even more significant role in making him do what he did.

    Likewise, I would argue that sexual emasculation of Asian men in this culture is merely the icing on the cake and reflects a more profound disempowerment that enables stereotypes to be propagated about us without allowing us much opportunity to respond. The small-dick joke is not emasculating, it is the fact that the shock jock gets to tell it in the mainstream media and I don’t have the opportunity to remind him that the average white dick is only 5.5 inches so don’t get too cocky that is soul-destroying – for me at least. So I think we need to get past this idea that emasculation of Asian men is about sexuality – sexual derogation merely emphasizes the degree to which Asian men are culturally and socially invisible, kind of like the school bully that you lost a fight to and who kept harassing you for the rest of the semester because he knew you could not beat him.

  242. Jenn,

    Asian-Nation has done an analysis that gets at this question. USR+FR is when a spouse is US-raised, and spouse can be either US- or foreign-raised, USR only is when both spouses are US-raised. A comparison of population size between both columns will give you an estimate of the size of marriages of US-raised Asians that are USR + FR (so, the last rowumn) in each col. What you see is a relatively insignificant difference between USR and USR+FR vs USR and USR columns, indicating that the majority of US-raised Asians are marrying US-raised Asian spouses. Also, there isn’t much gender disparity, either (i.e. men and women are marrying US-born spouses at roughly equally rates).

    Does the consistently higher “Population Size” number of (East) Asian women when compared to Asian men mean that more Asian women are getting married than Asian men?

    I’m guessing that the gender balance between Asian American men and women are more or less equal.

    When you look at South Asians, the Married Men:Married Women balance is almost 1:1. Yet in some of the East Asian groups, the balance is skewed almost 1:1.3. That seems like a big disparity. Coincidentally or not, the groups with the most unbalanced ratios also have the highest outmarriage rate by the women.

    Perhaps I am not reading these stats correctly, but what this seems to imply is that there is a significant number of Asian men who aren’t even counted in the marriage stats because they’re not married at all. I believe the Pew studies show this as well. Though there is an encouraging parity in terms of outmarriage percentage when you look at U.S.-born Asian Americans of both genders, the absolute numbers are still skewed in favor of women.

    One possible explanation is that there are just more unmarried men than women in general, Asian or otherwise, due to various social factors. But if so, then the South Asian population appears to be a great anomaly.

    Of course, the other explanation is that some Asian men are being excluded due to various factors, including anti-Asian bias. And this is where the great swell of discontent arises from.

  243. Jenn,

    Just a gripe but: on an individual level, if you’re trying to flirt with a person who actually would reject you because you’re Asian, what makes you think they wouldn’t reject you for any other superficial reason as well?

    See, this is where I think the biggest misunderstanding between us lies.

    I am NOT trying to fight anti-Asian male discrimination simply to get laid more. As I said, what I want is to be judged on my own merits as much as possible. If a girl I like is totally open-minded yet still finds some other flaw with me, I would be happy with that. This is the very outcome that I want. It’s not to make sure that every prejudiced girl will sleep with me once the veil of Asian emasculation has been lifted.

    Do you see the difference?

  244. Jenn wrote – “Just a gripe but: on an individual level, if you’re trying to flirt with a person who actually would reject you because you’re Asian, what makes you think they wouldn’t reject you for any other superficial reason as well? That person is clearly a superficial asshole who judges people based on appearances anyways; take away their White supremacy, and they’ll still judge you based on you being short or ugly, or they don’t like your haircut or the beer you’re drinking, or any other completely irrelevant piece of information. That’s not any better. That person is a superficial jerk.”

    Here is my magnum opus on Asian male masculinity. I hope Jenn is gracious enough to post it in its TL;DR entirety ;)

    There is theory and there is reality. Not everything fits neatly in a black and white box.

    I am an Asian American man. I know the sting of being publicly humiliated by in front of friends and strangers by Asian and white girls who brushed me off with a “Sorry, I don’t date Asian guys.” And they said it with a pleasant smile as if expecting me to say “Oh no problem! Everybody knows that people have preferences, and preferences are not wrong.”

    Yet I completely disagree with Jenn’s statement above. I personally know quite a few Asian girls who say “they only date white guys” yet they are good people and good friends, kind-hearted (many are nice church going girls, volunteer, etc). Some even “hang out” mostly exclusively with Asian friends, both male and female, but they prefer to only date whites (and only whites, I don’t personally know of any Asian girls who are open to dating blacks). Some are Americanized, some are fobs.

    But percentage-wise, the Asian girls I know who say “they only date white guys” is a relatively small percent of the Asian girls I know, maybe ten percent (which is still too much, but the majority of Asian girls say they are open to dating anyone, with a sizeable minority saying they only want to date the same type of Asian as themselves).

    Among these Asian girls I personally know who only date white guys, they are not superficial jerks. Many of them say personality is more important than looks, as are qualities such as respect and equality in the relationship. They prove it too — most are dating white guys who are not particularly good looking or tall, in fact, many fall in the “geeky” spectrum, and not the frat boy jock spectrum. Many of these white guys I’ve met are very smart and very polite. The Asian girls that I know hate it when white guys want them only for their Asian-ness. They’ll say things like it’s hard to date in America because of a unique mix of racial and gender oppression against Asian women that white women simply don’t have to deal with. They commonly say it’s really hard to find a “good guy” in modern society.

    But they also say things like it would be weird to date an Asian guy because they are “too familiar” and are more like “brothers.” The problem with American society today is that no one bats an eyelash when an otherwise good-natured, cool girl says that she “doesn’t date Asian guys” during polite conversation. Despite what Jenn claims, it’s generally not seen as distasteful at all in wider American society for an Asian woman to say such a thing. Conversely, it is seen as distasteful and a social faux paus to raise a fuss about it in response, often bringing on the retort “everyone has preferences, and preferences are not wrong” by the Asian girl as well her white male and female friends.

    However, I would say that categorically rejecting every single member of a “non-preferred race” is not a preference, it is racial prejudice. And it’s not caused by these girls being superficial assholes…it is caused by social conditioning.

    That is the real problem – social conditioning against Asian men. Asian men trying to attain more masculinity is not a problem. Asian men trying to get better with women (whether for sex or for fulfilling relationships – most of the Asian men I know want the latter, not the former) is not the problem. Helping Asian men get better with girls in general (not just for sex) and to have good dating lives is absolutely not a problem — in fact, it is a big part of the solution.

    Redefining masculinity so that it’s fine and acceptable not to go out on many dates (the default position for most Asian American males) is not the answer. It would be ONLY IF the man in question had no desire to date and CHOSE a deliberately celibate life. In before you get your panties in a bunch saying that that’s a man feeling “entitled” have sexual conquests with women … no it’s not! It’s a HUMAN condition (both male and female) to want a mate.

    Any halfway decent psychologist or biologist knows that having a good dating relationship(s) is a huge part of having good emotional health, along with friendships and respect from a good network of friends and family. Being denied any of that because of an UNFAIR position… such as being told to sit or eat in a “special colored” section because of the color of your skin, or just to accept the fact that many girls have natural “preferences” against Asian men and that it’s supposed to be acceptable… that will make the person in the unfair position very sad indeed. That’s the one thing Asian girls just don’t seem to understand no matter how much they try, because they’ve always been in demand in the dating pool. It sucks to be rejected and told to step aside simply for being a color, even before you are even seen as a human being.

    I actually understand a bit why most white women, if given a choice, would not date an Asian man (although they usually don’t say this publicly for fear of appearing racist, unlike Asian girls who usually say it proudly in public). For white girls, it is mainly a fear of the unknown and a desire for familiarity. I note that they don’t have a problem dating white guys because they are too familiar and “seem like brothers.” Yet for Asian girls, many take comfort in friendships and community with familiar Asian faces, both male and female, yet when it comes to dating, they throw Asian men under the bus. AND! Some of these Asian girls are nice human beings in all other respects. They are kind, loving and attentive girlfriends, daughters, mothers. You have to admit that sucks for Asian men.

    Martin Luther King Jr, though actively fighting white racism, actually said that he considered most racist white people to be nice people, loving fathers and mothers, and good boys and girls, who lived a wholesome lifestyle and went to church and were generally all around good people. They weren’t evil monsters. They were just raised to believe black people were inferior and had to sit and eat in the colored sections. They didn’t hate black people. They thought black people were nice people too. They were just conditioned to believe blacks to be inferior. It was just their preference not to associate with blacks. Sound familiar?

    Why is sex and dating such a big deal to Asian men? You wouldn’t REALLY get it if you’ve never been shunned simply due to being an Asian man. It TOTALLY sucks to have to sit in the dating “colored section.”

    I have many Asian friends who are unmarried and don’t date much who are in their 30s and 40s, and many are decent-looking (even if “for an Asian guy”) with decent jobs and good personalities. They almost all say they prefer to date Asian women only, but when pressed, they admit it’s because they think they could not get a non-Asian girl because that’s just the way things are. These guys are lonely and they want to get married. They don’t feel entitled to a relationship. They just want a relationship to be happy, like every human being does. They don’t want casual sex, they want a fulfilling relationship but cannot seem to find one. I am one of these guys. I am a single Asian guy around 40 years old. I feel very physically unattractive and overall undesirable in the US by both Asian and non-Asian women. When I was 30, I moved overseas to Asia for a number of years. It was the first time in my entire life women called me “good-looking” to my face. I was shocked the very first time I heard it, but I heard it many more times while I lived there. I’ve been back in the US for almost 5 years now, and I have not heard once that I was attractive in the time I’ve been back.

    Ironically, most of my single Asian guy friends who have sisters, their sisters are married to white men. My own sister is married to a white man. My sister has expressed to me in the past that she found no Asian men physically attractive. Yet she is a wonderful human being and one of the kindest most generous souls I know, so don’t anyone call her a superficial bitch or you’ll get my fist in your face. What has happened is that she has been socially conditioned by American society. It’s not really her fault personally. I remember she said the city in which she worked and met her husband was a mecca of open mindedness, and she had never had a negative racial incident there. My Asian-American guy friends who lived in the same city said they encountered racism on a monthly basis, even micro-aggressions from their own non-Asian friends, which my sister was shocked to discover. In fact, one said it was one of the most racist places he had ever lived. Yet my sister said she had never encountered any prejudice from non-Asians there at all… hmmmm…. makes you wonder if Asian women have a privileged position of racism-reduced privilege than Asian men simply don’t have.

    And to be fair, I do know many Asian women who are unmarried in their 30s and 40s as well, but these girls are either physically unattractive or overweight (another article could be written about the stigma against unattractive women) or have a difficult personality in some way. The single older females I am close with admit they feel lacking as a woman because they cannot attract a man. They don’t want casual sex, they want a fulfilling relationship but cannot seem to find one. Females also seem to feel angst if they feel unattractive to the opposite gender.

    But I want to end this social conditioning against Asian men, one Asian guy at a time, by a direct strategy of proving that Asian men can live up to any ideal of masculinity a white man can (yes, including getting dates with girls — and sex to if that is your personal goal). Each of you Asian men can start employing this strategy TODAY.

    It would also be a good 1-2 combo punch to employ Jenn’s indirect strategy of changing the norms of society to include things like politeness, sensitivity and respect in the definition of manhood, which as Jenn said Asian men seem to have a lot of already due to their cultural upbringing, but this will take many years, if not many more decades (the Asian male/female outdating disparity originated in the 80s and hasn’t really abated at 30 years later).

    But hear this. The core of Masculinity means going out and getting what you want, whatever that may be: money, a loving wife and family, a great career, lots of sex with random girls, a life of crime (yes you can be a masculine villain), a farm of puppies, a completely celibate life (IF and ONLY IF that ‘s what you really want), or a life dedicated to helping a leper colony.

    I’ll leave it up to Jenn and other women to define what feminism is.

    And Asian men, for god’s sake, please start working out. It doesn’t take much to improve your physique, and having a scrawny physique is a sin that many Asian men do have… stereotypes don’t come out of no where. And no matter what her “preferences” are, most women appreciate a good physique on a man, I’m willing to be that even Jenn is. That is the reality of life.

    Jenn, Asian men attacking Asian women for their dating choices by calling them “cunt,” “whore,” and “sellout” are a HUGE problem, but it is a separate issue. They are the outliers. They are the minority of Asian men who were born, or who have become, assholes. Mostly they are weak, hurt and anguished souls who are tired of being stepped on and kicked around by America, and let me now address them: Attacking Asian women is not the answer you fucking idiots! You basically derailed a whole set of allies and potential allies like Jenn who really want to help Asian men but now her focus has fixated on you assholes (and by association all Asian men) because you can’t step up and fix yourselves, and resort to attacking our potential allies. (And by the way, any truly superficial asshole Asian women who think all Asian men are automatically “this or that” or all have small penises or all are short, wife beaters, yada yada can go fuck themselves too.)

    Asian men being bitches and not standing up for themselves and going after what they want in life is a HUGE problem. Every Asian guy reading this, man the FUCK UP. Go work out. Improve your sense of fashion. Girls are expected to look good to attract a mate; men are not exempt. Go practice your social skills. Get a good haircut and learn some good hobbies, like music or dancing. Learn to become confident in yourself. Stop being so afraid of women. Rejection is a part of the game, whether you are an Asian guy or a white guy. Yes, it’s not fair that most Asian and non-Asian women generally have an open door policy toward white guys and shun Asian guys. But that’s fucking life. That’s the reality. Deal. Overcome.

    Find that diamond who doesn’t care about your race. It takes an independent thinking girl to date an Asian guy (or even a black guy, despite all their supposed popularity) in this society today… when you find her, you’ll have a gem. Go after the things you want in life. Yes, it is definitely harder for you than a white guy. Boo hoo. Don’t let the man hold you down. Take an example from our black brothers. Martin Luther King Jr was a fucking MAN. He never threw a punch. Malcolm X was borderline psychopathic violent, but he was a fucking MAN too. Jeremy Lin is the fucking MAN. I personally met JT Tran, and the racist dating bullshit he had to go through as a 5 foot 5 inch Asian man, yet he is out there helping his Asian brothers and going after what he wants….JT Tran is a fucking MAN. This is masculinity.

    Yo Asian guys, we all know that Asian women can be our greatest enemies (after all, wouldn’t you trust an “insider” to tell you that a particular product — in this case Asian men — sucks) but they can also be fantastic allies, and we will always appreciate Asian women who seek to understand us and affirm us. Their support is greatly appreciated and most welcomed, and we need all the support we can get. Sympathetic white men can also be great allies (yes they do exist and some have helped me personally). But it’s not up to them to fix our own mindsets for us. It’s up to us. Go out and get what you want. Be a man.

  245. Find that diamond who doesn’t care about your race. It takes an independent thinking girl to date an Asian guy (or even a black guy, despite all their supposed popularity) in this society today… when you find her, you’ll have a gem.

    … I guess I’m a diamond? Yay?

  246. Don’t know if you are being sarcastic but yes, I consider you an exceptional case because you are able to think independently and not look at your boyfriend as a “black guy” foremost but as a human being whose character you respect. Most Asian girls who say they “don’t date Asian guys” don’t date black guys either.

    There is still a stigma against dating black guys in this country if you are a white or Asian girl, especially from the families of Asian girls (I’ve seen it plenty), but also from friends and strangers. I even met a black girl once who said she doesn’t date black guys because they are “lazy and no good” (her words), and preferred white and even Asian guys. Maybe she thought I would be flattered when she told me this. I told her to take her anti-black male racist attitude and shove it.

    I define a diamond as someone who fulfills the dream of MLK, Jr, who said that he hoped that some day his children would not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. In the dating world, black men and Asian men have not achieved that dream yet.

  247. By the way Jenn I personally think you are an upstanding individual with great patience, and the personal attacks you have endured are not to be tolerated, and I would personally join forces with you in beating down these guys who have called you names and slurs in real life if I could. Women go through tons of misogyny (I know, I work in the tech field) and it really sucks, and it needs to stop NOW. Any guy who goes around telling sexist jokes in public or private needs to get a serious beatdown. I don’t normally condone violence but in this case I do.

    Jenn, you are already a great ally to Asian guys, and I hope you will be able to more fully grasp the depth of pain that Asian guys have been subjected to in the dating world simply by being born in this country, in contrast to the unbelievable privilege (yes along with racism as well) Asian women have been subjected to by being born in this country. So much so that Asian girls don’t understand some things, such as why are Asian guys so fixated on the outdating disparity, etc. For example, many Asian girls say there is a double standard when an Asian guy is happy when he sees an Asian guy with a non-Asian girl, yet doesn’t like to see Asian girls with white guys. Saying they are hypocrites.

    It’s just not true. It’s all about the balance in the equation. Let’s say you saw a 240 lb bully smacking around a 140 lb boy for no reason, and everyone denounced the huge bully for hitting the boy. But then suddenly, expectedly, the small boy pulled out a punch out of nowhere and knocked the bully out cold. I bet anyone watching the situation would not be able to stifle a cheer. No one would denounce anyone who cheered as a hypocrite because they denounced the bully’s violence yet didn’t denounce the victim’s violence. It’s the underdog pulling out an unlikely upset against undeserved attack, so everyone would be denouncing the bully yet shaking the boy’s hand. That’s why I feel happy when I see an Asian guy with a non-Asian girl… it’s the overcoming of a huge stack of obstacles set forward by society in order to make such a couple so unlikely.

    The WhiteMale-AsianFemale (WMAF) combination represents a position of privilege. The white man chooses to date an Asian woman, even though he can freely date white women. He does it because HE CAN. Asian women generally are very open to white men. Many times the white guy in such a relationship openly or secretly feels he is a “better catch” than an Asian guy and has done the Asian woman a favor. The Asian woman in such a relationship many times prefers a white man (sometimes exclusively). So chances are not small that both members of such a couple have the commonality of looking down at least slightly on Asian men. The WMAF combination also gets very little stigma from society. Hardly anyone (even bitter Asian males) verbally or otherwise harasses such a couple.

    In the USA, an Asian girl has to do absolutely NOTHING to date a white guy. She just has to walk around and live her life. Eventually a white man WILL ask her out. This is reality. And many times white men approach Asian girls BECAUSE they know they have preferred status and an artificially elevated shot at success when compared to approaching a white girl, who gives him no special points for being white. In fact, many Asian girls openly approach white men, which is almost unheard of (almost no women approach men in general)… if you don’t believe me, just ask around among your female Asian friends or male white friends. So in some cases, it’s the white guy who has to do absolutely nothing in order to form this oh-so-common couple. In either case, it takes very little effort and no overcoming of social stigmas in order for such a couple to form, which is why they are so common. And there’s not a little bit of looking down on Asian males in many cases (secretly if not overtly). An Asian girl doesn’t even have to ever date an Asian guy her whole life, because SHE CAN. She will still have a rich and full dating life with many suitors.

    On the other hand, when you see an Asian man with a non-Asian woman, first of all, you know her head has been filled with stereotypes about Asian men: small penis, not manly, chauvinistic, nerdy, not a good protector, etc. It’s likely many of her friends think she can “do better” than an Asian guy, and that her family probably doesn’t approve, and strangers do double takes, and sometimes the men from her race are openly verbally or physically hostile. Yet she is with him, so chances are good that not only can she see past all the bullshit, she is probably above average in kindness and overall character for being able to see past all the stereotypes and see a human being whose character she admires.

    And compared to a white man, an Asian man has to WORK EXTRA HARD and face extra rejections if tries asking out girls, ESPECIALLY if they are non-Asian girls, because of all these stereotypes. So it’s likely the Asian guy has somehow worked his way up to gain extra confidence and probably faced many more rejections than a comparable white guy in order to achieve his goal. In other words, the very fact that such a couple exists is an example of snatching victory against great odds. So an AsianMale-XFemale combination is rare because it is so hard to achieve, and because it is the farthest thing from a privileged position for either member in the couple — it doesn’t just happen. So that’s why when I see an AMXF combination, I mentally give them a high five because of all the bullshit they had to overcome just to exist as a couple. It’s not a double standard at all.

    That also includes Asian girls with Black men. In my opinion, black men who date Asian women generally do not look down on Asian men and think they have done the girl a favor by offering himself as a better catch. And Asian girls who date a black guy have to overcome a bunch of bullshit too, so I applaud such couples as well, in general. I said it, I applaud Asian girls for dating non-Asians, lol.

    Ultimately, I think love should be colorblind. Ironically this is said the most by Asian girls who say they “only date white guys.” They often defensively say, “Can’t I date who I want? Love is colorblind!” The massive irony of such statements juxtaposed against each other boggles the mind.

    As a corollary, I think feminists should be free and applauded to pursue their own goals. I know some (not all) feminists feel that women should be free to pursue casual sexual relationships and not be shamed into being called sluts, IF that’s what they want. Men are generally applauded by other men (and even many women) for being able to “score” with many girls, so feminists feel they should have that same right. I say, more power to these women. As a man, I’m not going tell a woman to stop looking for many casual hookups if that’s what they truly want. Being a woman today means being able to express yourself and “find yourself” any damn way you please. So I think women should extend the same courtesy to any guy who wants to “find himself” or gain confidence by bedding as many girls as he can, without shaming him, IF that’s what he wants. More power to him.

    Personally, I don’t want that. I want a loving wife and family. But even if a guy wants to find a loving wife as the ultimate goal, you need to get good with girls in general (not for casual sex, but for dating). That’s because you need to be able to date more than a few girls in order to find one you really like. Then you need to have the social skills to be able to date said girl for a reasonable amount of time. Then the relationship skills in order to make the girl want to accept your marriage proposal. All of this is a process. You go through dating many girls in order to find “the one.” And dating many girls requires, guess what, being good with girls in general. A guy who wants to get married has to be somewhat good with girls in general.

    Being good with girls is a worthy goal for all men in my opinion. In general, not just for sex.

    Being good with guys is also a good skill for women to have, in my opinion, although less important for them because women can be horribly shy, etc, and still find a mate.

    Men who are horribly shy and don’t man up will die alone. But there is no such thing as an INVOLUNTARY celibate. If you want a girlfriend and don’t have one yet, it just means you haven’t tried hard enough. Yes yes, I know it’s hard for you if you’re an Asian guy. Fucking man up. You have to be twice as masculine (or smart, or rich, etc, maybe not twice as tall which would be freakish) as a white guy in order to score the same girl. Deal with it. This is reality. But no one is truly stopping you but yourself.

    I hope this is making more sense. All of this is just flowing from my brain, so it’s not carefully thought out. Anyway, a big fist bump to Jenn and everyone else on this board trying to find their way looking for happiness through a rough and bumpy life. May you all find what you are looking for!

  248. @piggyrabbit:

    I started to read your longwinded essays and just got tired and gave up right after the comments criticizing AMs that you never call out WM for.

    Once again:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh9NonsB6V0

    Why is it that WM are like snowflakes and are all individuals without getting the “sexist patriarch” nor “racist” terms associated with them but some numbnuts on fringe websites and twitter somehow becomes associated with the generic “you [all] Asian guys” implicitly?

    FYI, we “militant virgin losers” have already wrote a guide towards AM empowerment that’s worthwhile to post here:

    http://tinyurl.com/qbw28w3

    All AMs just need to get out there and play the field without regards to AF or racism, it’s a numbers game and Asians should be good at numbers! ^_^

  249. Yep, “awaiting moderation” is an euphemism for “censorship” by any other name…

  250. When it comes to dating and getting what they want, women are cutthroat.

    If a girl likes a guy, anything he does is romantic or excused as misunderstood. If she doesn’t like you, anything you do towards her is seen as brotherly or just as often seen as creepy or stalkerish. I do not take what most women do personally because I find most of them to be emotional, self centered hypocrites and I learned to accept it rather than repeatedly question it in frustration.

    Even with this Elliot Rodger case, instead of acknowledging the victims, both male and female, white and asian, as Jenn thoughtfully did, or discussing mental illness, the #YesAllWomen bandwagon hijacked the entire conversation to further a feminist agenda. All of the most important people in my life are women: My mother, my sister, my partner, my daughter. I love them and I do my best to be supportive, but I will be the first to tell you that they are all super entitled, and perceive most men as threats to be avoided or opportunities to be exploited. Women have no mercy or empathy in dating and are barely even conscious of the reasons behind their own motivations.

    Back when I was dating, I always did best at starting relationships etc, when I was assertive and aggressive, not when I was polite or respectful. That was uncomfortable, because, by default, I don’t really want to be all that assertive. I do not fault men for doing what they have to do. If you need to get tattoos, smoke cigarettes, and ride a motorcycle, do it. If you need to make lots of money and then date women who make less to keep the upper hand in the relationship, do it. If you need to learn guitar and join a band, do it. If you need to become a fireman, do it. If you need to get a cute dog and hang out at a crap covered dog park for an hour everyday, do it. Its useless to question what women are into, or to convince them to change.

    Although, if that was a real goal, getting rid of Hollywood and Disney with their cult of princesses with irrational expectations would be a huge step. I have done everything in my power to keep American princess culture out of my daughters life, and its like trying to fight off a tsunami with a bucket. Every little girl I know wants to grow up to be a F**king princess but no one stops to think about what a princess actually is. A princess is a spoiled child with all the status and power to control others, but none of the responsibilities of a king or queen. She is a diva that gets to be bossy and play dress up all day, using tax money collected from poor peasants and farmers, or blood money and riches collected from deadly wars. She gets all of the benefits of privilege without any of the accountability or sacrifice.

    I am not saying all women are delusional princesses, but having lived around the world, I can say there seem to be A LOT of them in the US. If you go overseas and meet a nice girl, that is not defeat, that is a blessing and a victory. Maybe wasting time on entitled Americans, male or female, isn’t worth it.

  251. Piggy Rabbit,

    I feel for your situation. I am in my mid-20s, and it wasn’t until I too took a prolonged trip to Asia that I finally started to feel genuinely attractive. Fortunately, I’ve been able to build upon that huge boost of confidence even after I came back to the U.S. and I’ve been having much more dating success than before. I’m in a relationship with a young White woman now (briefly dated a Black woman before), so maybe you can give me that mental high five, haha.

    If it makes you feel any better, I think Asian guys my age and younger have been doing fine for themselves. I think they’ve finally figured out the game somewhat. I even think that the problem of “selling out” will even arise in the Asian American MALE community in a decade or two.

  252. @Peter

    Although, if that was a real goal, getting rid of Hollywood and Disney with their cult of princesses with irrational expectations would be a huge step. I have done everything in my power to keep American princess culture out of my daughters life, and its like trying to fight off a tsunami with a bucket. Every little girl I know wants to grow up to be a F**king princess but no one stops to think about what a princess actually is. A princess is a spoiled child with all the status and power to control others, but none of the responsibilities of a king or queen. She is a diva that gets to be bossy and play dress up all day, using tax money collected from poor peasants and farmers, or blood money and riches collected from deadly wars. She gets all of the benefits of privilege without any of the accountability or sacrifice.

    I am not saying all women are delusional princesses, but having lived around the world, I can say there seem to be A LOT of them in the US. If you go overseas and meet a nice girl, that is not defeat, that is a blessing and a victory. Maybe wasting time on entitled Americans, male or female, isn’t worth it.

    A-fucking-men. Ironically, I just had this conversation yesterday with an incredible and intelligent 17 year old young woman interning in my lab, and how we both kind of hated Disney princess culture growing up. She’s completely a-political, but we both agreed that we liked the Disney movies where the female protagonist wasn’t a stereotypical princess, e.g. Mulan, Pocahontas, etc (of course, for me with the caveat that both have some pretty horrific race issues). I think, or at least hope, that America’s Disney-fication of the princess trope is slowly shifting: consider the message of “Frozen”.

    Back when I was dating, I always did best at starting relationships etc, when I was assertive and aggressive, not when I was polite or respectful. That was uncomfortable, because, by default, I don’t really want to be all that assertive.

    Aren’t/weren’t you concerned that starting relationships with women by being someone you’re really not comfortable being would doom such a relationship to failure from the start?

  253. @crazyMMer

    Yep, “awaiting moderation” is an euphemism for “censorship” by any other name…

    Yeah, there’s no way “awaiting moderation” could mean “Jenn has a full-time dayjob as well as a need to unwind at night, so she’s not going to be sitting by her keyboard with her fingers poised above the ‘approve’ button so she can let a comment through seconds after it is submitted”.

    Come on, CMM. That’s just absurd. If your comments are flagged by WordPress for moderation, a 24 hour wait-time isn’t unreasonable.

    Stop and think for a minute, CMM. I’m running this blog on a volunteer basis, and paying for it with my time and money out of my own pocket. I’m not Skynet. I don’t even own an iPhone, so when I disconnect from my laptop, I actually disconnect.

    If I really wanted to censor you, your posts would never appear. Censorship isn’t “Jenn needed to sleep so she couldn’t immediately approve the comment you posted at 2:08am”.

    (BTW – the reason your comment was held was that it contained 2 links. Any comment containing 2 or more links is held for moderation to ensure it’s not spam.)

  254. @Jenn,

    (BTW – the reason your comment was held was that it contained 2 links. Any comment containing 2 or more links is held for moderation to ensure it’s not spam.)

    My apologies then. That’s good to know in terms of why it’s happening. ^_^

    One thing I have to say I respect your blog a bit more than Phil Yu’s is that you never seemed to be peddling mail order brides ads like he was. ;)

  255. One thing I have to say I respect your blog a bit more than Phil Yu’s is that you never seemed to be peddling mail order brides ads like he was. ;)

    Neither of us are. We both have Google Adsense installed, which draws ads largely out of our control from a central database and based on keywords that appear on our site. We can only filter content after it appears by noticing that the script has pulled an advertiser we don’t like — say, mail-order brides — and then blocking it. This is dependent on happening to load the site when Google decides to load the questionable ad (since everytime a user loads, he or she get randomized ads so you’d have to be reloading your site a bunch of times to see what ads are being pulled up) or we rely on users to tell us when something effed up shows up. It was actually Phil who told me he got a mail-order bride ad on my site, so I could block it.

    Sometimes readers show up, happen to get a bad ad, and then assume we’ve approved the ad and give us shit for it. They’ll even email us and tell us they got it. Unfortunately, that’s not even enough information — we need the domain name of the advertiser in order to block it so sometimes we can’t even do anything until we are able to load the ad for ourselves. Either way, if you get a mail-order bride ad on Phil’s site, shoot him an email with the domain-name of the advertiser (don’t ask me how to get that info without clicking the ad; I still haven’t figured that out) — he’ll block it immediately.

    That being said, thanks for the compliment! Both Phil and I try pretty hard to create spaces for the community.

    My apologies then. That’s good to know in terms of why it’s happening. ^_^

    Fair enough. I do think it’s worth giving bloggers the benefit of a doubt. We’re humans, with lives, and there’s a lot about how things happen behind the scenes that are out of our control, or not intended to be malicious. Bloggers get a lot of shit, and I think too often it happens when people make assumptions about things and then criticize us based on those assumptions. If something happens — a comment is held for moderation, an ad appears you don’t like, etc — it would be refreshing to not have people assume it’s because the blogger is trying to deliberately do something untoward.

  256. @Jenn, being assertive is just the same as asking for her phone number, asking her out, buying dinner, opening doors, and taking the lead on the dance floor etc etc. Society is going to tell you that you don’t have to do it and that we are all the same, but reality plays out a little differently, right? Standing on principle doesn’t impress dates much. Yes, most women seem to want be treated like a lady, with respect and chivalry. But just as much, it seems to me that they want to feel safe to be a woman, which means that guys have to take the lead on most things in dating.

    With assertiveness, it is necessary because it shows that I DESIRE her, and that I am confident enough to move forward, and that I am comfortable in my own sexuality. Which, in turn, makes her feel safe and comfortable in expressing her sexuality, if she so wishes. If a woman isn’t feeling your desire for her, most times its not going to go well. So, given the time constraints, sometimes you have to communicate that desire verbally and physically faster or more boldly than you would like, just to make she understands that your interest is real and intense enough to be worth her time. This of course comes with the disclaimer that you express that desire in a measured way that does not overwhelm the other person. Everyone has their own mix of flirting, teasing, touch, and compliments that they are comfortable with.

    It may not be 100% genuine, but nothing about dating is. Hair color, hair dye, extensions, eyeshadow, eyelash extensions, colored contacts, foundation, blush, lipstick, lop gloss, face lifts, collagen injections, botox, jewelery, breast implants, push up bra, nail polish, moisturizer, spanx, tight clothes, loose clothes, high heels, its all a lie. A visual lie, but a lie none the less. Maybe women should give these things up well. I know a lot of women that hate walking around in heels for more than 10 minutes. Are they being true to themselves?

  257. Crazy MMer — you’re my bro. You’re my brother. I feel your pain man. I really do. No one truly understands exactly what Asian guys go through except for other Asian guys who have lived through it, and are living through it. I can see the pain and frustration behind your words. And I get it. I really get it.

    You know why black guys started calling each other “brother” ? It was back when they were slaves. When they met another black guy, they knew they were in the same boat. Feeling the same pain.

    You and I, we’re brothers. I love the 2nd link you posted. Especially the part where it says Asian American men must set aside their old world differences. I love my Viet, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Mongolian, Hmong, Cambodian, etc etc Asian American brothers. We’re all on the same side, brother.

    Do racist white guys get a pass from me? No way. No racist gets a pass from me. But you can’t fight racism with racism. You can’t fight racism with sexism. I prefer the MLK Jr way. As much as I respect Malcolm X, I don’t agree with him calling all white people “white devils” etc.

    Why is Jenn and other feminists focused on the misogyny of Asian American men and linking it in some form to Elliot Rodger? It’s because people focus on the things that have hurt them.

    Asian American men put their laser focus on Asian female racism and the unfair dating playing field, because that’s what has hurt us the most. We don’t put our laser focus on how Asian American women have been hurt by sexism, because that isn’t the thing that has directly impacted us.

    Jenn doesn’t put her laser focus on the Asian gender outdating disparity because it hasn’t really hurt her… in fact, if one is truly honest, the outdating disparity has benefited her and other Asian American girls to some degree whether they wanted it that way or not, whether they like the current system or not.

    Instead, when it comes to this whole Elliot Rodger deal, Jenn puts her laser focus on the thing that has DIRECTLY impacted her negatively, which is Asian American men calling her “cunt”, “whore”, “sellout” “rape-wanter” etc etc. FROM HER PERSPECTIVE, can you see why it’s easy to draw some parallels between that abuse she’s received from Asian American men and how Elliot related to girls? This is the thing that has directly hurt her the most, not the dating issue.

    By trying to be like Malcolm X and demonizing the people that hurt us, namely Asian American girls, these Asian American male idiots have instead alienated them, our great potential allies. That’s why I wanna give a beatdown to those Asian American men who have called her these names. But I still love these guys as well. Because I know where they come from. And I understand their pain. And I have wanted to lash out at Asian American females and the white males who date them too. But I know it’s counter-productive.

    I have often seen white guys saying things like, “Oh so and so Asian girl doesn’t date Asian guys because she says they have small dicks and they are chauvinists.” Instead of saying that’s messed up and warped thinking, these white guys instead high-five each other and give a fist pump and say, “Yes, more pussy for me!” These white guys don’t deserve any sympathy. They are benefitting from a racist situation. So no, they don’t get a pass from me.

    But Jenn’s strategy of changing the concept of masculinity to include Asian men as we currently are is a noble one, but it will just take too damn long. It is a good uber long-term strategy. But we as Asian men can do things right now, TODAY, to start turning things around.

    We can step up. We can man up and grow some balls. We can learn to carry ourselves better, speak more loudly and proudly, and step up to girls and ask them out, and get rejected many times and learn and grow from that, and finally get that girl we always wanted. We can man up, starting TODAY.

    Crazy MMer, we are bros. We are on the same side. We are all we got. Asian bros got to stick together. We are in this together. I fully support you man. You’re my bro.

  258. Pozhal —

    You don’t get a mental high five from me. You get a HUGE BRO HUG. I love it man. Absolutely love it. Where and how did you meet this white girl and black girl?

    You’re right about the younger generation. My generation (around age 40) is close to a lost cause. Our self-esteem is pretty shot when it comes to dating. But I notice almost all of the Asian-man/X-woman couples I see are college age or maybe mid-twenties at most. You guys are holding it down.

    Times are changing. The way Asian men look at themselves is improving, with people like Glenn from the Walking Dead… man that sex scene he had with Maggie… I literally couldn’t believe with my own eyes network producers would ever show that on TV. When young Asian men see that sort of stuff on TV, it gets internalized man. All I had growing up was Long Duk Dong and Hop Sing. I internalized them.

    And not to say Asian women are in any way inferior to white women or black women. I love Asian women. They are beautiful and awesome. They are our partners in crime. We need to fully support their fight against sexism.

    In the end, women are women. Race doesn’t matter. Men are men. Race shouldn’t matter. Let’s stand together against anti-Asian racism.

  259. Peter –

    I think Jenn is saying “Just be yourself” and you’ll eventually find a girl who likes you for you.

    I think what you are saying is that if “being yourself” isn’t working… in other words, you don’t have an actual date for 6 months straight (not uncommon for an Asian man if we are honest with ourselves), or you don’t have many friends, or you can’t find a job… then “upgrade yourself” in some manner.

    Am I right with my assessment?

    For the record, I believe in “upgrade yourself” a thousand times more than “just be yourself.”

    Because being a typical Asian man DOESN’T WORK in this society. In the USA, you have to be an REALLY COOL Asian guy just to be considered on par with a normal run-of-the-mill white guy.

    That’s the reality. So Asian guys, let’s all stop complaining about the unfairness — the situation is most definitely unfair — and just fucking do it. Man up and upgrade ourselves.

  260. “But Jenn’s strategy of changing the concept of masculinity to include Asian men as we currently are is a noble one, but it will just take too damn long. It is a good uber long-term strategy. But we as Asian men can do things right now, TODAY, to start turning things around.”

    Piggy Rabbit, I’ve read all of your posts, and they are well thought out and articulate. And I agree with most of what you said. Except for this part. I don’t think her strategy is noble at all. It’s self-serving. You were right in your earlier comments when you said that Jenn focuses on what has impacted her and Asian men focus on what impacts them. Because of that, Jenn isn’t truly interested in helping asian guys. She’s interested in fighting against what affects her. That’s her number one priority. And I don’t see any problem with that. She should fight against it. What I do have a problem with is how she makes it seem like what she’s doing is to equally benefit asian guys. And that’s far from the truth. Like many have said before, her “solution” isn’t a solution at all when it comes to the problems facing asian men. Because 1. It’s not a practical solution and 2. Asian men would feel just as ignored and rejected as before even if masculinity is redefined

  261. Most importantly what can Asian American females and other ethnicities learn from this, is the pain Asian American men go through everyday.This lunatic is an example of a white mans mind trapped in an asian mans body. If men of other ethnicities go through what asian men go through they would go crazy, which actually justify your so called asian misogyny. Misogyny is a symptom of a disease, and the best way to treat a disease is by treating the cause and not masking the symptoms. What is causing this problem is racism towards asian men in the love scene.

    Instead of helping asian men fight this racism you reinforce it by blaming us for misogyny. Asian females can’t have it all, you can’t abandon us and leave us in the dust, while expecting asian men to not riot or trying to do something to change the situation.

    The Western world have been plundering and enslaving people around the world, stealing and keeping all the wealth and food, resulting in white people getting bigger with leisure lifestyles, while the rest of the world lag behind with their majority population short and skinny. And what’s normal in war is that the conqueror takes all the gold AND the women of the losing tribes. And like in war the losing tribes usually face extinction or reduces to a very small number.

    We asian men will not allow this to happen, in the near future the world will witness the greatness of Asia and our culture and our masculinity will be restored. I am asian in Europe, but to my fellow asian brothers from the US the best thing you can do for yourself and future generation is to support the Powerhouses of Asia, China, Japan, Korea etc. and the rest of asia. Only when Asia rises will they learn to respect us. And all the asian females who only date non-asian men, their strategy might just backfire on them, when their future hapa sons wishes they were fullblooded asians in a world where Asia are much more developed.

  262. Van, I hear you bro. I know where you’re coming from. I sense the frustration and I share in it too. But saying things like “Jenn isn’t truly interested in helping asian guys” is a bold accusation. Statements like that will only alienate our allies.

    I would agree with you that Jenn’s number one priority is probably to defend Asian women from attacks, after all, that is the point of this site. Care to weigh in Jenn?

    But I think Jenn is also trying her damnedest to also help Asian guys the only way she knows how. And she’s not perfect. When she was asked what Asian girls can do directly to help Asian guys by Pozhal, she literally said she had no clue.

    Well, I have a laundry list of things Asian girls can DIRECTLY do to help Asian guys. She just can’t think of any cuz she’s not in our shoes. Cut her some slack man. She is not perfect, but she is on our side.

    She is on our side man!

    If we don’t agree with something she said, we should offer our alternative, not throw her under the bus by saying “Jenn isn’t truly interested in helping asian guys.”

    I hear your frustration man, but that’s not the way to go about it.

    That said, I agree with your points one and two. It’s not a DIRECT ACTION (in military terms) solution, in terms of raw practicality. But it is an indirect strategy that could produce positive results given enough years or possibly decades.

  263. To clarify my last post about Jenn not knowing what Asian women can do to help Asian men directly:

    On May 26, 2014, Pozhal wrote:

    But you should also examine it from the other side and acknowledge that there are indeed some Asian women who do have racial issues and internalize White male primacy in their own personal lives. Or if you don’t agree with that, you could acknowledge that American culture certainly promotes WM/AW relationships while ignoring/denigrating Asian men, so much so that Asian men do have reason to feel excluded (and erroneously blame Asian women). So what can Asian women do, that Asian men can’t, to fight back against this?

    Jenn replied on May 30, 2014 at 6:26 pm

    I have no earthly idea. …

    Guys, Asian girls want to help us, they just don’t know how. It’s our job to educate them and give them ideas, not accuse them of not truly wanting to help us. Let’s be positive and proactive about this, and appreciate any ally we do have. Because as Asian guys, we are in a lonely position, and if we even complain at all publicly to anyone who isn’t an Asian guy, our issues are mostly brushed under the rug or even worse, we get attacked.

    By the way, can anyone tell me how to quote other people? Thanks so much :)

  264. @Piggy Rabbit

    “She is on our side man!”

    I hate to break this to you, but we have tried to show her evidence and she just waves it away as being anecdotal. Just myself alone tried to bring up the phenomenon of white sexpats in Asia disguised as esl teachers, creep white guys who can’t get women (like elliot rodger) who are welcomed by unsuspecting Asian females, 4x higher std rates in Asian females than Asian men (higher than white females), 387% higher divorce rates between afwm than afam, the weirdness of the wm af choose – no common culture, can’t even communicate properly, giant age difference, often big attractiveness gaps (especially in Asia), the ludicrous reasons they date out (“they feel like my brother”), love is color blind nonsense (“I *ONLY* date white guys” is the definition of racist), Asian guys are according to official fbi statistics the LEAST criminal, LEAST violent, LEAST likely to sexually assault a female, etc

    You would think that an Asian feminist activist would protect other Asian females by warning them of these real dangers from yellow fellow creeps.

    Nope. Not a word from Jenn.

    I tell her all this and more that I can’t recall now. She just hand waves away everything with her Jenn defense ® (eg everything I say is anecdotal)

  265. Yun Xu, just because she doesn’t fully understand or fully agree doesn’t mean she’s not on our side. Most Asian girls who date non-Asians don’t give one single fuck about Asian men. Not. A. Single. Fuck.

    Jenn at least is here allowing a forum where we Asian guys can come on and defend ourselves and offer helpful suggestions to each other and to other people who are not Asian males. She is also expressing her willingness to help directly if we only show her how in a practical sense.

    All your talk is borne out of frustration. Do I understand you? I understand completely. Go read all my posts. I have walked in your shoes brother.

    All your points you listed… they are valid. They are concerns. But ultimately they are peripheral. They are not the important things to focus on.

    Asian women can support us, cheer us on, encourage us, but we Asian men must fix ourselves. We’ve been dealt the short end of the stick. Society itself has broken down our self esteem and our self worth. Asian women can support us, but they cannot fix us. We must fix ourselves.

    We are gladiators in the arena. We are not here by choice. We must fight, or die.

    Blaming Jenn for not doing more, for not fighting in the arena for us, that’s cowardly. We must fight for ourselves.

    The question is, what are you doing about it TODAY? Yun Xu? Asian women cannot be our champions. They can cheer us on, but we are the ones who must raise the sword and fight.

    What have you done today to improve yourself? To upgrade yourself? To be a better man and to go after your goals. What will you do tomorrow?

    Let us stop crying and complaining all day (a little bit is allowed) and let us TAKE ACTION.

  266. @Yun Xu -

    As far as I’m concerned, limiting oneself to dating only a certain physical type – racial or otherwise – is as superficial as it is racist, and is almost a guarantee to miss out on the potential love of your life. In short, Asian women who conscientiously choose to exclusively date White men are just as racist as the Asiaphiles they defend.

    Jenn wrote that. So see, you guys agree after all. She is most definitely on our side man.

    http://reappropriate.co/?p=2165

  267. Piggy Rabbit,

    “The question is, what are you doing about it TODAY?”
    lol I already fixed my dating problems long ago and more recently, I put my thoughts on a free website to help struggling Asian guys (asianmancure.com). I detailed every step in there instead of the “just be yourself” nonsense. And no, I don’t tell guys to be pua scumbags.

    It’s very odd that you consider my valid points to be complaints. I see them more as exposing the truth that so-called Asian feminists refuse to acknowledge yet everyone including non-Asian females see as self-evident.

    Yes, I am frustrated, but not with my dating life.

    I’m frustrated when I see many Asian feminist activists who do nothing to stop those who exploit their naivety. Instead, they perpetuate their own oppression by defending their exploiters as “heroes” in school texts, books, tv, film, magazines, ads, blogs, and youtube videos. They also attack the people they should be supporting. THAT is frustrating. I liken it to watching Jewish women defending nazis while stabbing Jewish men in the face – to the applaud of nazis.

    nazi? I must be crazy, right?

    opium wars, Vietnam war, nuclear bombing Japan twice, Chinese coolies getting massacred, Japanese internment, Japanese 442nd battalion sent on suicide missions, usa occupation of Philipines, usa military rapists in South Korea and Japan mostly walk in court, etc – nearly all done by white “men”

    Yet, there’s hardly a word about that stff on Asian feminists blogs.

    Jenn – Here’s one simple thing that can be done. Mobilize an effort to remove the propaganda by amy tan and maxine hong kingston from schools.

    You know, it’d be a good start if everyone were NOT brainwashed in highschool to unjustifiably hate Asian men as part some “evul female oppressing dynasty of doom and despair” because white males in yellowface told them to.

  268. Piggy Rabbit, I guess I’m just past the point of expecting Asian women to help Asian guys. If Asian women truly want to help, then I of course welcome it, but I’ve lowered my expectations so I don’t get my hopes up. I don’t think I’ve been rude to Jenn or anything. At the same time, I’m not going to sugarcoat how I feel just to appease her. If I feel an Asian woman truly isn’t helping, I’m going to say so. Here’s how I feel. If a big portion of the people you’re trying to help are questioning your true motives, then maybe it’s time to reexamine things and whether or not you’re truly helping. I think despite a lot of asian guys disagreeing that she’s truly helping, she’s not reexamining anything. It has no affect on her outlook, and that’s why I don’t think she’s really that interested in helping. Like you said, as an Asian guy, we just need to improve ourselves and help each other first and foremost. No need to look towards Asian females. I’d much rather look for support from black females who understand me more than Asian females. Or any other race for that matter.

  269. @Yun Xu

    I don’t see your points as complaints, I think they are all valid. But I think focusing on them won’t help. The website you made — I just glanced at it, that’s the kind of stuff I love man. Practical. Direct Action. Navy Seal stuff.

    By the way, every Asian man needs to read all the books written by Chester Wong (look on Amazon). He is a definition of how to be a man as an Asian living in a western country. Learn from him.

    @Van

    Asian women can be our greatest encouragers, and of course we welcome their help. But they can’t fix us. We need to fix ourselves. So we cannot rely on anyone’s help but ourselves anyway.

    That also means no more intra-Asian bickering. If you are an Asian-American (or Canadian or Australian) male, you are my brother. And I will do everything I can to directly help you.

  270. @Piggy

    As far as I’m concerned, limiting oneself to dating only a certain physical type – racial or otherwise – is as superficial as it is racist, and is almost a guarantee to miss out on the potential love of your life. In short, Asian women who conscientiously choose to exclusively date White men are just as racist as the Asiaphiles they defend.

    Jenn wrote that. So see, you guys agree after all. She is most definitely on our side man.

    http://reappropriate.co/?p=2165

    BWAHAHAHA — I was about to write “I totally agree with you” after reading that first paragraph.

    … before I realized you were quoting me! :)

  271. @Yun

    Jenn – Here’s one simple thing that can be done. Mobilize an effort to remove the propaganda by amy tan and maxine hong kingston from schools.

    Oh yeah, book censorship is a good idea. Why don’t we burn those books while we’re at it?

    I think Maxine Hong Kingston’s is a seminal Asian American feminist text. Does Woman Warrior stand alone? No. But it belongs in schools in the same way Catcher in the Rye does.

    You seem to assume that an Asian American feminist text is a non-starter if it identifies sexism within the Asian American community, as if what’s more galling than sexism in the community is conversation about sexism in the community. Same thing with this post — how many men are more pissed off because they “look like the enemy” rather than to contemplate whether or not there’s something worth talking about relative to male privilege within the community? To what lengths are you willing to go to avoid considering how you might complicit in sexism within the community, Yun?

  272. They also attack the people they should be supporting. THAT is frustrating. I liken it to watching Jewish women defending nazis while stabbing Jewish men in the face – to the applaud of nazis.

    Christian missionaries are rapists. Asian American feminists are Jewish nazi lovers. Is there any analogy you ever draw that isn’t just completely and absurdly over-the-top?

    You know, it’d be a good start if everyone were NOT brainwashed in highschool to unjustifiably hate Asian men as part some “evul female oppressing dynasty of doom and despair” because white males in yellowface told them to.

    Right, because White men wrote Woman Warrior.

  273. @Piggy

    That also means no more intra-Asian bickering. If you are an Asian-American (or Canadian or Australian) male, you are my brother. And I will do everything I can to directly help you.

    I feel that way too, and wish the entire community could feel that way also. That’s why it’s so frustrating to read all these earlier comments basically arguing something about how I suck.

    That being said, I’m gonna back off for the moment. It seems like you guys are having a bro conversation that seems important to you, and even if it’s half about how selfish and hypocritical I am, I’d rather let you guys have that convo if it’s about developing your male identity. So have it — I’ll be moderating (i.e. reinforcing the no ad hominem/no slurs rule) but otherwise letting you guys talk among yourselves until it seems reasonable for me to step back in.

  274. We shouldn’t alienate Jenn while trying to prove a point. Jenn is awesome for facilitating communication and for taking the time to read and understand what everyone is saying. I know we are all grateful for that. That is far more than most people can do or are willing to do. Thank you Jenn.

  275. @Jenn

    Haha thanks, that is most gracious of you. But I think I’m pretty much done rallying my bros for now. Sorry for diverting your thread, but I really feel such an undercurrent of pain and frustration among my Asian bros here that I just had to say my piece.

    I do think misogyny against women is a big issue in the US (and probably Canada, Australia, UK, etc), and Asian women get a special Asian-flavored variant of it that white women don’t.

    I think a small, simple, but effective part of any solution to any problem is to just express that you think it’s not cool.

    For example, some guys at work might make a derogatory remark against women programmers. I won’t get all confrontational and in their face, I might even snicker to show I appreciate the misplaced attempt at humor, but then I might say something like, “Hey man that’s not cool. I’ve worked with a lot of women and they were actually great programmers.” Boom. Enlightenment. A small, practical, direct way of helping in the fight against misogyny.

    And for any girl who wants to know a practical way to help Asian guys… for any women who have dated Asian guys in the past, you might be with a group of girlfriends, and somebody makes a derogatory remark about dating Asian guys. The girl doesn’t have to get all confrontational and in their face, she might even snicker to show she appreciates the misplaced attempt at humor, but then say, “Hey, that’s not true. I’ve dated Asian guys and they are not like that at all.” Boom. Enlightenment. A small, practical, direct way of helping in the fight against anti-Asian male racism.

    Baby steps to victory!!

  276. It’s kinda long. Enjoy.

    re:missionary rapists

    “The role of the missionaries in the colonisation of the region was also considerable in terms of cultural and political domination of the people. Although the missionaries’ task was to make people accept the Bible and its teachings, Christianity was turned into an ideology which could be used to convince people not to resist white domination. Religion was used to legitimate, sustain and even promote political tyranny and oppression”

    What happened to all those people that they “helped”?
    What happened to all the land and resources of the people that they “helped”?

    I don’t care about their claims. I only care about results. The results are usually destruction and a “magical” wholesale transfer of lands and resources to white “saviors” and disney films about how “noble” whites saved them from themselves.

    re:nazi analogy
    How is this NOT an apt analogy?

    WHO decimated those countries???
    WHO poisoned their land with chemical weapons?
    WHO brainwashed them with religion?
    WHO raped those women???
    WHO portays as af as easy whores on screen?
    WHO portays their brothers and fathers as losers on screen?
    WHO spreads lies about them both
    WHO spreads propaganda that is anti-Chinese, anti-Japanese and whoever non-white else rises in power?? – to get the masses to hate them and eventually support any and all military aggression?? Look at westerners that CELEBRATE Asian national tragedies. That’s fucking abnormal and it happens because they’re conditioned to think the worst of us.

    WHO DOES ALL THAT?

    AND WHO do Asian females defend?

    Crazily enough, they are one and same.

    re:censorship
    Nice word trick.

    This is about destroying lies. Those two are full of crap and promote lies to appease white people by slandering Asian men and praising “white rugged heroes”.

    It’s not that they’re an Asian feminist. It’s that their “work” is propaganda. Had it been written by Asian men, I’d denounce them too.

    Let’s say I wrote a book that claims Asian females are bearded shoplifters and gold diggers and that Asian men are domestic abuse victims that can only be saved by sensual and loving Russian women and get this into schools. The kids reading this shit will grow up to HATE Asian females based on these lies. You cool with that?

    Better yet, do you think we should remove “race realist” studies that claim Black people are essentially retarded? or would that also be “censorship”? hmmmmmmmmmmmm

    re:”because White men wrote Woman Warrior.”
    You missed the joke. moving on….

    re:”Same thing with this post — how many men are more pissed off because they “look like the enemy” rather than to contemplate whether or not there’s something worth talking about relative to male privilege within the community?”

    No. Your timing was the issue. It also revealed your heavy anti-Asian male bias despite your protests. For you to talk about Asian men being misogynistic after THREE INNOCENT AM(s) WERE VIOLENTLY STABBED TO DEATH by a racist who hates Asian men takes a lot of bias against am(s). Please, think about what you did and WHY you did it.

    re:complicit sexism
    The only criticisms I ever make of Asian females is that they are often conditioned to blindly hate Asian men and blindly defend white guys while claiming to be color blind, some refuse to acknowledge the facts, and many attack Asian men for imagined offenses like the evul Asian patriarchy.

    I would fight oppression against Asian females if I saw it in the west. When I DO fight it like creepy white guys, sexpats, divorce rates, whore roles in media, etc – I get hand waving responses from you.

    I see silly claims like my barely existent male privilege (in the west. The East is very different).

    I will agree with you that males have privilege to get certain jobs, not to get sexually assaulted, etc. But how the is that an Asian male problem? That’s a society level problem yet some Asian feminists will pin it ALL on Asian men as if we’re a shadow government pulling the strings.

    On my own site, I warn Asian men NOT to take their anger out on females (Asian or not) because many of them don’t know better and it’s also despicable.

    I’m looking at the definition of sexism. let’s see…

    I have never:
    -assaulted or sexually assaulted a woman
    -rushed a girl for sex
    -played/cheated to look “masculine” to my “bros”
    -discriminated against them when hiring or firing or promoting or paying
    -dismissed their thoughts because they’re a female. After all, we’re still verbally punching each other.
    -controlled their abortion choices.
    -mutilated their genitals
    -enslaved them
    -used a prostitute because of it’s connection to sexual slavery (and pride)
    -made rape jokes

    What more do you want? Do you want me to file your bunions?

  277. @Peter

    We shouldn’t alienate Jenn while trying to prove a point. Jenn is awesome for facilitating communication and for taking the time to read and understand what everyone is saying. I know we are all grateful for that. That is far more than most people can do or are willing to do. Thank you Jenn.

    No worries at all. Thanks for reading, and I’m glad you guys are getting a good conversation out of it. Like I said, no hard feelings; I just think the convo went to a place where it no longer was appropriate for me to comment.

    And for any girl who wants to know a practical way to help Asian guys… for any women who have dated Asian guys in the past, you might be with a group of girlfriends, and somebody makes a derogatory remark about dating Asian guys. The girl doesn’t have to get all confrontational and in their face, she might even snicker to show she appreciates the misplaced attempt at humor, but then say, “Hey, that’s not true. I’ve dated Asian guys and they are not like that at all.” Boom. Enlightenment. A small, practical, direct way of helping in the fight against anti-Asian male racism.

    Yeah – see I don’t even think that’s gender-specific. I think people should just do that, guy or girl, if they get confronted with obvious racism. I’ve done exactly that before. (Well, except for the dating Asian guys thing; I’ve had one boyfriend in my entire life, and I’m not about to break up with him so…; either way, I prefer to say something like “yo, not cool. that’s racist.”)

  278. Piggy Rabbit,

    You don’t get a mental high five from me. You get a HUGE BRO HUG. I love it man. Absolutely love it. Where and how did you meet this white girl and black girl?

    I’ve found dating apps to be great boosts to my dating life. I’m in my mid-20s, so I’m still young, but I’m at the age when social circles have mostly closed. In fact, I’m a huge fan of dating apps because they eliminate social gatekeepers.

    For example, most people traditionally meet their partners through friends or acquaintances. Very rarely do you have a movie-like Meet Cute moment where a guy and a girl find that they’re reading the same book in a chic cafe and love blossoms spontaneously. In such a system, it’s hard for “lower” groups (like Asian guys) to expand their dating options because in order to do so, they must first make friends outside of their groups. Sure, if you’re an amazing conversationalist, you could try getting dates in the 3-minute conversations you have at various parties, but most guys of any race aren’t like that.

    So effectively, what happens is that Asian guys have to first be welcomed into non-Asian circles by non-Asian guys, after which they can make friends with non-Asian girls and hopefully find a reciprocating romantic interest. But generally, non-Asian guys aren’t too welcoming of Asian guys into their circles because we’re seen as social deadweight. We don’t bring “street cred” or any aura of coolness like Black guys do, and we’re only seen as irritating competition at best.

    Conversely, Asian girls are often easily accepted into non-Asian circles for various reasons.

    But with dating apps, you can bypass all that. No more White guy social gatekeepers making sure that Asian guys can’t get too friendly with White girls, whereas they expect to be treated like guests of honor at the various Asian interest events they go in hopes to finding Asian girlfriends. You can also make contact with various racial groups, such as Black people, that may be more difficult to reach otherwise.

    I do think dating apps are wonderful inventions. Many of my female friends now use it too. The only holdouts are those self-proclaimed “romantics” who think that meeting the “traditional” way is better. But they should realize that the “traditional” way is heavily predicated on a lot of social exclusion and passive reliance on dumb luck.

    Also, if you want to quote people, use the brackets with “blockquote” and /”blockquote” in them.

  279. Van,

    I guess I’m just past the point of expecting Asian women to help Asian guys.

    I think we should also acknowledge that there are many different types of Asian American women. Most of my Asian female friends are internationals (i.e. they’ve spent a significant part of their childhood in Asia), and I think it’s because most of them have a great balance between Americanization but also knowledge and appreciation for their Asian home countries.

    A lot of guys here, including me, complain about Amy Tan and Maxine Hong Kingston, probably more for what they represent and have inspired than what they actually wrote. When I think of the “Amy Tan” Asian American girl, I think of someone who was born in the U.S. and has rarely, if ever, gone to Asia. Her parents may be immigrants, but they have no intention of going back. In fact, they may have left on bad terms and don’t hold their home countries in a good light. Moreover, they’re stuck in the Immigrant Time Warp, so the version of Asia they’ve told their children about is one that is much more impoverished and underdeveloped than the Asia of now.

    For example, let’s say that you left South Korea in the early 1980s, when it was under a military dictatorship and definitely not the respected economic power that it is now. Immigrants will still hold onto THAT Korea, even though that when most people think of Korea now, they think of high-speed internet and entertainment. If you were American-born and the dominant image of Korea that you had was a poor and rigidly authoritarian society, you’d probably want to distance yourself from it too, right? Especially if you were an Asian female and White society constantly beckoned you to join them.

    I’m not trying to excuse self-hating behavior, but I think it’s important to understand it so that we don’t become overly frustrated when some people simply can’t, or refuse, to see our point of view.

    And instead, we can focus on those who’d be much more willing to become our allies. I think Asian American women who’ve had significant life experiences in Asia would make tremendous allies. The main obstacle is that they may not be invested enough in Asian America to make their voices heard. That’s what we have to change.

  280. @Jenn,

    I think you’re mistaking “censorship” from “curriculum” selection in terms of Tan and Kingston-Hong writings.

    It just shows how sad APIAs are when we’re still talking about Frank Chin vs Amy Tan here nearly 30 years later.

    Certainly nobody’s saying “censor” Amy Tan and Maxine Kingston-Hong, but the fact there’s no alternatives to their writings and it’s forced upon children in schools says something about the power structure in the US of writers who toe the corporate line vs those on the fringes.

    As for “bonafide” censorship issues, I hope you support schools reading Huckleberry Finn with the “n-word” unadulterated instead of taking them out of the curriculums – given your personal life and beliefs and how the “n-word” is the central controversy.

    Because I’ll go on record saying Huckleberry Finn is more of a “classic” than “Joy Luck Club” or “Woman Warrior” can ever hope to be.

  281. @Pozhal,

    Make no mistake, there’s still significant sexism in some Asian countries/cultures even in 1st world countries like Korea and Japan where women have less rights and privileges than men do.

    HOWEVER, what’s disingenous about Tan and Kingston-Hong is that they write FAKE FOREIGN cultures from Asia that has NOTHING to do with Asian AMERICANS and therefore on some level also perpetuates the racism of Asians seen as “perpetual foreigners.”

    Frank Chin’s writing is kind of terrible too, but at least it’s from the APIA perspective and we need more literature from our experience instead of Lisa See books adaptations of “chop suey pulp fiction.”

  282. @Piggyrabbit,

    Where have I been racist and sexist so far on this forum or other forums? You seem to be using a classic delfection tactic of calling/insinuating that I’m racist for simply speaking out the truth and linking to a real youtube video of white males being racist and sexist on a similar level, if not worse than some just fringe comments on a fringe website.

    So simply posting videos that white males posted themselves and pointing out your (un)intentional turning blind eye to their antics is racist to you? Where are your priorities?

    Yun Xu has “asked” some of the tough questions which you, Phil Yu and Pheonix Tso seems to constantly avoid since they don’t fit in with your agendas of demonizing AMs, but here’s one more “tough questions” for you: look at the many recent cases of WM Asiaphiles murdering AFs, where’s your outrage and blog posts calling out WM misogny and “misogilinty?”

    Pozhal wrote that “Joy Luck Club feminism” doesn’t exist, but I’ve seen no evidence here to that effect whereby you’re calling out the WMs (including Elliot Rodger who self-identifies as WM), that there’s the same if not worse sexism.

    You wrote that Jenn is writing her blogs in response to AM sexism, but this seems to be a chicken-and-egg problem with negative feedback loop of one vs the other. It’s fair enough you’re telling the AMs to stop the sexism, but the fact her anti-AM idea of “misogilinity” as only being addressed to AM and not to WM says volumes about who’s goading who.

    In a tragic event where 3 AMs were victims for no reason and the self-identified WM Rodger’s spewing self-entitled rants because he’s a WM, Jenn chose to rant and denigrate AMs (not in “general” because of “some” and “certain” qualifying legalese adverbs to absolve and dissociate herself from problematic generalizations) and you also never say anything about WM sexism?

    I’m just a racist for stating the facts here, sir.

    You say “brothers” and Malcolm X and MLK, and I’m glad you mentioned it. Because you should know about Malcom X’s “house slave vs field slave” idea and for me “brother” is somebody who’s got my back. No offense, but I don’t get that sense from you whatsoever; rather I get the sense you’re using terms like “brother” in order to paint me as some irrational firebrand who’s anti-social. But in my mind you’re only cheapening the word “brother” because you call everyone that and it has no connotation when it comes to somebody who really has my back.

    In fact, if the term “sold down the river” means anything to you, then you know the REAL history of slavery wasn’t all “brother” this and “brother” that unity; but real history is about large gamuts of belief systems and personalities all clashing and harmonizing together.

    Even in Asian American history there’s conflicts, so it’s never been unified. Therefore, I have to decline being called your “brother” until I truly know where you stand.

    In fact, from experiences with WM trolls I can say you’re using the same sort of tactics of insidiously injecting anti-AM racist terms into your essays by disguising them as “backhanded compliments” and you think it’s too slick to be detected.

    I can’t say much more on this blog without the censorship issue, so I’ll leave it at that until you want to come over to a “real APIA forum.”

    Cheers

  283. I think you’re mistaking “censorship” from “curriculum” selection in terms of Tan and Kingston-Hong writings.

    Yun wants the book banned from classrooms. That would be censorship.

    the fact there’s no alternatives to their writings and it’s forced upon children in schools says something about the power structure in the US of writers who toe the corporate line vs those on the fringes.

    You mean like “Bone”? Or Chang Rae-Lee’s “On Such a Full Sea”? I could name so many feminist fiction works; the notion that you think there are no other works that might belong with MHK in a class on Asian American feminist fiction speaks to the degree to which you are not well-read. There are plenty of texts that could supplement a curriculum that included seminal works by Maxine Hong Kingston. I’m less interested in supporting Amy Tan’s writing, because I only think her work is influential because of its pioneering role in helping to popularize the genre of Asian American literature. Otherwise, it’s not particularly literary.

    As for “bonafide” censorship issues, I hope you support schools reading Huckleberry Finn with the “n-word” unadulterated instead of taking them out of the curriculums – given your personal life and beliefs and how the “n-word” is the central controversy.

    Why wouldn’t I? I don’t think you read this blog enough. I wrote in a previous post that I’ve never supported the blanket banning of words. I have never given even the remotest indication that I would support the campaign to ban Huck Finn.

    You’re also using “unadulterated” wrong.

  284. @CMM

    I’ve seen no evidence here to that effect whereby you’re calling out the WMs (including Elliot Rodger who self-identifies as WM), that there’s the same if not worse sexism.

    Elliot Rodger self-identified as a “beautiful Eurasian” repeatedly through his manifesto and social media. He did not self identify as a White man, and hated the White men who earned the attention of the women he yearned for.

    Plugging your ears and wishing Elliot Rodger was White because it better fits your narrative of evil White men does not in fact make Elliot Rodger so.

  285. lol

    more selective quoting I see.

    Let’s see what he also said

    1. “I descended from british aristocracy”
    2. called Black men “descendants of slaves”
    3. called Asian men “hideous” “disgustingly ugly”
    4. he felt his Asian side was holding him back.

    Yes, he did call himself a beautiful eurasian, but let’s be honest. If he had to pick ONE, he’d call himself white and everyone knows it.

  286. Crazy MMer you make valid points man. Nothing you said I really disagree with. Those white guys in the video don’t get a pass from me, don’t know where you’re getting that. I don’t turn a blind eye. You’re angry and I get it. You think I’m not angry about things like that but believe me it infuriates me.

    What do you want to do, track those guys down and beat the shit out of them? It would be satisfying, but I don’t agree with those tactics. We want the same thing, we just disagree slightly on the methods, that’s all.

    I don’t think you’re irrational. Maybe a bit of a firebrand, but then so am I, and so is Jenn. I don’t know you personally so I don’t know if you’re anti-social, but that’s not a crime even if you were. I’ve been anti-social for 40 years. Much of it is the fault of racial bullying I received as a teen. I became fearful, withdrawn. I can even relate to Elliot Rodger’s early childhood. Being anti-social doesn’t make one a bad person. It is just something that needs to be overcome.

    House slaves and field slaves. I can run with that analogy. Right now Asian men are field slaves. Asian women are house slaves, and they look down on field slaves. The master sleeps with the house slaves and let’s them live in the house but looks down on all slaves. No slave will truly be free until both house slaves AND field slaves are set free and achieve equality. Does that analogy better fit along your way of thinking? Because even though some Asian women think they can escape being Asian by shunning Asian men, they cannot do so. Especially if they end up having Asian-looking sons. The better solution is to make society not see Asianness as a shameful thing. That’s partly what Jenn was suggesting in redefining masculinity to be inclusive of traits commonly found in Asian men.

    But let me tell you why Jenn is aiming her hammer at Asian guys. It’s because white guys don’t call her “slut”, they don’t call her “whore” and they don’t call her a “rape wanter.” In fact, white guys are generally very nice and polite to Asian girls’ faces, EVEN THE WHITE GUYS WHO ARE RACIST. Because they have an vested interest in being nice to Asian girls, even the racist white guys (because even though they might be racist, they don’t want to turn away easy poontang. I’m sorry if that sounds crude but it is reality. I know exactly how men think).

    White guys might call Asian girls “easy” and “me love you long time” but they won’t do it to an Asian girl’s face, especially one they are pursuing. I have white guy friends. Surprise! And if one announces he recently started dating an Asian girl, there is always another white guy who will pipe up “Me love you long time.” Yes, it’s done in jest. But it goes to show Asian girls (the house slaves) aren’t quite equal with white women (the free women) yet. White girls don’t have to face racism on top of sexism.

    When someone hurts you, you take your anger out on them. Jenn has been most hurt by Asian guys. As far as I can tell, white guys haven’t really hurt Jenn directly, and they don’t hurt other Asian girls either. Jenn is free to refute this.

    So she, and other Asian American feminists, don’t have a direct, visceral, personal axe to grind with white misogynists, just a general policy against overall white misogyny. But she has a very direct, personal, visceral, pain-induced vendetta against Asian male misogynists who have DIRECTLY attacked her and vilified her and insulted her and called her horrible things.

    Jenn’s focus and this website’s focus is on defending Asian women from those people who have directly hurt them the worst. That means bitter Asian misogynists.

    Even the most obvious white misogyny against Asian women that Asian women actually see and experience would be more along the lines of unequal pay, belittling their physical and/or mental capacities, perhaps some “ni hao, where are you really from” racial faus paux, etc. Those things induce anger, but not the visceral fury that being called a “rape wanting sellout slut” does. Don’t you agree?

    Give Jenn a break because what she has been called by these Asian American guys is absolutely horrible.

    It’s horrible.

    How would you respond if some guy walked up to your mom or sister and said, “You deserve rape. I know you want to be raped. You’re a fucking cunt.”

    Tell me you wouldn’t want to take a crowbar to his kneecap, or even blow his fucking brains out. At the very least you would want to beat the living shit out of that guy.

    Now take that feeling, and remember it. Because that is what Jenn and other Asian American girls feel when they get called these things. Is it any wonder they build websites and communities to defend themselves and each other from these types of attacks? Is it any wonder when they see Elliot Rodger they immediately recall these incidents and statements?

    Are Asian American women innocent of all wrongdoing? Of course not. Many of them have hurt Asian American men terribly. Laughing along with small dick jokes. Telling white guys that Asian guys are losers. Telling their white girlfriends never to date an Asian guy. Many Asian American girls suck.

    But horribly misogynistic verbal attacks is not the answer. It needs to stop. It needs to stop bro.

    Jenn could say the same thing about Asian men. Why are we so fixated on dating issues, Asian women dating white men exclusively, etc etc. Why don’t we focus on more wide-ranging and arguably more hurtful/important issues, like sex trafficking of Asian females, poor income and education amongst lower class Asian Americans, etc etc.

    It’s because those issues aren’t gut-level visceral to us. We react to the things we have been most stung by.

    Whatever “hand waving” you see from Asian girls regarding dating issues is the same “hand waving” you do when you hear about workplace gender pay disparity. Am I wrong?

    I call you my brother because we are going through the same thing. I know you don’t feel like reading all my “long winded” essays but if you don’t read them all, you don’t really know my mind. I’ve gone through, and I’m going through the same mistreatment as you. That’s why I call you brother.

    You don’t know how humiliated I’ve been, in public and private, by girls (Asian and non-Asian, as well as non-Asian males) who looked down on me, questioned my manhood, mocked my dick size, didn’t see me as a “real man” simply because of my race. And they do it under the guise of humor, so that I AM NOT EVEN ALLOWED to fight back, because then I’m told to “lighten up.”

    We are in the same foxhole, getting shot at by the same enemy. We just have different ideas about strategy and tactics. Maybe you are a close quarters combat guy, and I’m a tanker. Maybe you are a fighter pilot, and I’m an artilleryman. Maybe you’re a Navy SEAL, and I’m a logistics officer in the rear. It doesn’t mean we’re not on the same side fighting the same battle.

    Maybe you don’t see me as a brother. But I see you as mine.

  287. @Pozhal

    That’s pretty interesting about the online dating. I’ve found from experience that most Asian women and practically all non-Asian women filter out Asian men from their search criteria, so Asian men don’t even appear in their searches.

    So I found approaching girls in real life had a much better (still poor, but much better than online dating) success rate than online.

    Is that not true for younger women? Do they not automatically filter out Asian guys anymore?

  288. @Dr Fan,

    Yes, I’m an ignoramus dolt who don’t understand how to use them $5 words like “unadulterated” because of my “niggardly” funded public school education.

    You know it as well as I do what I meant in terms of “unadulterated” of not being allowed to have Huck Finn books with “the n-word” by taking it out or substituting the lesser “offensive” word.

    And yes, because of my poor public school education I was forced to read Amy Tan books and none of those other ones. I had to wait for college to even understand Frank Chin existed and the literary battle still continues. Which is exactly my point that there’s no options for dissenting opinions in this country and whereby writers/bloggers who toe the corporate line of anti-AM depictions get promoted.

    Yun’s words were:

    Mobilize an effort to remove the propaganda by amy tan and maxine hong kingston from schools.

    I agree that the sentiment is a bit harsh and that “academic freedom” must be respected in terms of the divergent thoughts that’s allowed in schoools. However, like I’ve been repeating like a broken record: Frank Chin and other dissenters aren’t allowed in the classroom so there’s automatically some sort of biased selection going on – which means of course the US corporate line is promoted.

    As for the semantics argument: “remove” is different from “ban” that you’re insinuating and is drastically different from “censorship” that you’re going out on a limb to attribute to Yun Xu.

    As for Rodger, he might’ve stated a few times on being “Eurasian” but it’s always in context of how he’s superior to “full Asians” and therefore your piece here to extrapolate hapa to Asians is overreaching at the very least…

    Rodger seems himself as a superior White descendant of UK royalty and that’s a far cry from the AMs you’re trying to blame this mental issue unto…

    Notice, I’m also using disqualifier words lest we get into the “ban” issue on a personal level… ;)

  289. “Whatever “hand waving” you see from Asian girls regarding dating issues is the same “hand waving” you do when you hear about workplace gender pay disparity. Am I wrong?”

    I can only speak for myself. You are wrong. I’ve observed discussions between Jenn and others who refute this claim with facts. She won’t hear it.

    Also, ask yourself, WHO are the major employers in the west? WHITE MALES. So, white guys pay you less and somehow, the Asian man is at fault?

    I have conversed with Jenn in private and the only real issue I can agree with stopping is sex trafficking, but no policy will work except flatting inequality and alleviating poverty. As long as people are poor and desperate, there will be fucking scum that will trick/force them into slavery.

    Regarding the visceral reaction thing. That’s no excuse.

    If you flip it, you would actually be excusing the subset of Asian men who call Asian females sellout whores because “we should consider their perspective”.

    Both sides have been hurt by the other side, but the demonization of the entire group is wrong. Also, I don’t think she does that, but she does have a strong anti-Asian man bias and seems to give white guys a pass.

    I wish I could travel back in time and beat the shit out of those Asian pricks who mistreated you in the past so you would be more a reasonable and fun-loving Jenn 2.0 ^________^ instead of mean spirited anti-Asian man Dr Admiral General Fang >__<.

  290. I think we all agree that Jenn recognizes that only a subset of Asian Men deserve her fury. Surely you guys are not reasonably saying that Jenn is anti-Asian man, IN GENERAL??

    But I’ll stop speaking on Jenn’s behalf here though, and let her defend herself.

  291. Also, what do you guys want from Jenn exactly?

    To be fully understood?

    Or to be offered practical help?

    She, and other Asian American girls, will never fully understand what it is like to be an Asian male living in Western society. She can sympathize, but not fully empathize. Hounding her to fully understand our viewpoint completely is a futile one, and not through any fault of her own. We may even disagree on many of the points raised.

    But she can definitely offer us practical help. She can tell her female readers and friends to employ suggestions given to them by us.

    I think that is the more beneficial route. It actually gets shit done.

    Just as we will never fully understand what it is like to be a female suffering under misogyny. Hounding men to fully understand women’s viewpoint completely is a futile one, no matter how well-meaning the men are. We may even disagree on many of the points raised. But we men can offer her help by employing suggestions she gives us in the fight against misogyny. That way, shit actually gets done about it.

    Let’s do the things that actually work and help, instead of arguing until we completely see eye-to-eye. As Bruce Lee said, let’s do the things that are actually effective.

  292. Piggy Rabbit,

    There’s no point. So far, her solutions are impractical and ignore reality. I have given my best shot at helping Asian guys with my site. Like I said, am(s) must pull themselves up and the girls will follow. No amount of facts/logic will change their minds (it seems). I haven’t spoken to all Asian feminists so who knows. Maybe there are those out there who will listen.

    “But she can definitely offer us practical help. She can tell her female readers and friends to employ suggestions given to them by us.”

    LOL I’m sorry. I told her to boycott mark walberg for being a racist scumbag who blinded an Asian man AFTER using him to hide from the cops like a kkkoward. This Asian hating PIECE OF **SHIT** dated eurasian actress, China Chow and is now a major hollywood star with millions of clueless Asians sending this **FUCKING SCUM** their hard earned money.

    What did Jenn do? Nothing.

    Take a look. http://reappropriate.co/?p=5797

    Instead, I see meandering posts about comic books reviewers and the promotion of the whitewashing of All You Need Is Kill from Japan (adapted to Edge of Tomorrow) and soliciting donations on behalf of Apologist Asian Man, Phil Yu.

    It’s next-gen absurdity. #WhackStation4

  293. @Yun

    Yes, he did call himself a beautiful eurasian, but let’s be honest. If he had to pick ONE, he’d call himself white and everyone knows it.

    So your “evidence” that he actually self-IDs as White is based on 1) denying how Elliot Rodger actually self-identified in multiple parts of his online presence, 2) assuming that only White people hold racist views, and 3) making shit up about how Elliot Rodger MIGHT respond if he were put in the absurd hypothetical of having his biracial self-identification rejected and forced to choose some sort of monoracial identifier. Ok.

  294. @CrazyMMer

    And yes, because of my poor public school education I was forced to read Amy Tan books and none of those other ones. I had to wait for college to even understand Frank Chin existed and the literary battle still continues.

    Which is a good argument to add MORE Asian American feminist books to the classroom, not ban them.

    Which is exactly my point that there’s no options for dissenting opinions in this country and whereby writers/bloggers who toe the corporate line of anti-AM depictions get promoted.

    What in god’s name are you talking about?

    Frank Chin and other dissenters aren’t allowed in the classroom so there’s automatically some sort of biased selection going on – which means of course the US corporate line is promoted.

    What’s your evidence of bias here, and not just evidence that a curriculum needs to be revised? Also, to be honest, Frank Chin is pretty obscure outside of the Asian American community; Amy Tan is far more mainstream and has had books on best sellers lists. It’s likely that high school teachers building their own general literary curriculum that includes an Asian American book will choose Tan over Chin just because they aren’t exposed to Frank Chin. There’s just no evidence of deliberate malice, especially if we’re talking about a teacher teaching a class that isn’t Asian American lit specific. If we’re talking about an AAPI lit-specific class, than yes Frank Chin might belong on the curriculum next to Kingston, but then I’d probably argue for replacing Tan (again, I just don’t find her very literary).

    As for the semantics argument: “remove” is different from “ban” that you’re insinuating and is drastically different from “censorship” that you’re going out on a limb to attribute to Yun Xu.

    Err, no, Yun Xu was asking for me to start a campaign to “remove” Amy Tan from classrooms because of the subject material and something, something “propaganda”. That’s calling for a book ban.

    As for Rodger, he might’ve stated a few times on being “Eurasian” but it’s always in context of how he’s superior to “full Asians” and therefore your piece here to extrapolate hapa to Asians is overreaching at the very least…

    Rodger seems himself as a superior White descendant of UK royalty and that’s a far cry from the AMs you’re trying to blame this mental issue unto…

    See my comment to Yun on the incredibly faulty reasoning and wishful thinking you’re using here.

  295. I think we all agree that Jenn recognizes that only a subset of Asian Men deserve her fury. Surely you guys are not reasonably saying that Jenn is anti-Asian man, IN GENERAL??

    No, of course I’m not. I’ve been accused of it by folks like Yun, but usually based on largely “a gut feeling” they have. I have yet to see any evidence of my own anti-Asian man hatred. I’m a feminist, so y’know, I do talk about sexism sometimes. But mostly, I think I get this charge because I won’t take shit from anyone — guy or girl — if they step up. Which means, if an Asian dude gives me shit, I’ll give it right back.

    But, of course, me being the best expert on me: no, I don’t have any issues with all Asian men. And, since it’s impossible to prove a negative, or to “prove” one’s own opinion beyond stating it, that’s pretty much all I’ve got on this subject. That really should be enough. I mean, how do you “prove” that you don’t hate a group of people?

    I don’t even have a shit ton of fury against the trolls whose comments I’ve posted up on this post. I think it’s tragic, and I think it’s immoral. I also think those people are misunderstood who probably just want to be heard. What you guys DON’T know is that I spent time trying to converse with that Ric Yu dude, hearing him out, and talking with him over DM. I treated him respect for a long time, until he started calling me a sellout and a whore for the race of my boyfriend. Then I pretty much had to block him, but that was after about 3 weeks of conversation.

    I don’t hate Asian dudes. I hate misogyny and I hate sexism. I don’t think Asian dudes have some sort of monopoly on that.

  296. re:elliot rodger
    This is the hand waving I’m referring to. He OBVIOUSLY thinks white is right from his own “manifesto”. You seem to be alone by asserting otherwise.

    re:amy tan
    You still haven’t responded to the hypothetical removal of “race realist” “”studies””

    re:where did you say that
    It was at bigwowo. Also, the idea that you raise the pay levels as an ASIAN feminist issue implies Asian men are responsible.

    re:more Asian feminist authors as solution…

    ^THIS….THIS is why I feel like this goes nowhere.

    You ever ask yourself why is it that EVERY mainstream Asian feminist seems to married to a white guy?? Doesn’t that seem EXTREMELY ODD??????????

    Imagine a bunch of white women, supposed authorities on american culture, are paired with ONLY Black guys. Not one of them is with a white guy. Not only that. They trash talk white guys in all their “books”. You think that’s normal?

    These Asian feminists OBVIOUSLY have some bias against Asian men and probably Asian culture by extension. These same people get to poison the minds of others with their biased views of Asian culture taken from the Chinese revolution and other less enlightened times.

    That’s like me, an expert on agriculture, that uses a brief period of killer dust bowls as THE picture of agrarian societies.

    I can’t remember who it was, but one of these “authors” claimed that the Chinese character for woman is the same as slave. THAT PROPAGANDA is in schools.

    Somehow, you actually think this is progress and we should have more from these “visionaries” ???

  297. In fact, white guys are generally very nice and polite to Asian girls’ faces, EVEN THE WHITE GUYS WHO ARE RACIST.

    This comments really leads me to believe you’re not really Asian and is hiding behind the facade to insidiously “backhand compliment” Asian dudes to put us down.

    Did you watch that youtube video at all?!!! Again, you’re making up excuses to ignore WM sexism and racism and brush it aside but anything even remotely not in line with your political ideology is AM being evil patriarchs and sexists.

    We “militant loser virgins” do talk about all the other issues facing APIAs. In fact, I was one of the most vocal voices on here against SCA5 and have stated my positions.

    It’s because these blogs are constantly belittling AMs that “some” of us evil AM chauvnists respond with outlandish words.

    Sure, that Ric Yu dumbass is way out of line with the twitter personal attacks and I’ve even said some things on MM.com that’s hyperbole and “trash talk” – but at the end of the day you haven’t seen any AM going out and stuffing AF into kitty litter and wall panels like WM Asiaphiles, but you “conveniently” ignore the real world facts and say that AMs are evil for saying a few bad words online in rants.

    That’s the way the internets works: if you say something demeaning towards one group then people are going to retort. I’ve been called many names by AFs online too, but I don’t have a blog that holds a grudge against them. I have a thick skin!

    Tell me you wouldn’t want to take a crowbar to his kneecap, or even blow his fucking brains out. At the very least you would want to beat the living shit out of that guy.

    Now take that feeling, and remember it. Because that is what Jenn and other Asian American girls feel when they get called these things.

    And since you’re advocating peace but then in the next thought block goes into “harboring that rage” – so which is it?

    Maybe you don’t see me as a brother. But I see you as mine.

    Like I said before: AF “empowerment” is completely separate from AMs. While I don’t think those UCLA flier incidents by some numbnut (probably false flag by WMs) is going to help “the cause,” I do believe in calling out a spade a spade.

    There are even WF sociologists saying the exact same things we “militant angry losers” are, so I don’t know where you’re saying we’re in the wrong.

  298. Rabbit wrote

    She, and other Asian American girls, will never fully understand what it is like to be an Asian male living in Western society. She can sympathize, but not fully empathize. Hounding her to fully understand our viewpoint completely is a futile one, and not through any fault of her own. We may even disagree on many of the points raised.

    It’s not about coming to some sort of “we agree to disagree” type of middle ground, but rather the constant denigration from her blog and others about evil AMs.

    In some ways I agree that we “crazy militants” should back off more, but the fact you constantly get articles like Pheonix Tso’s (among others) means some response is warranted.

    As long people can agree to a mutual “cease fire” I’m sure these personal attacks will stop across the interwebs. But can you get the likes of Pheonix Tso to agree?

  299. Which is a good argument to add MORE Asian American feminist books to the classroom, not ban them.

    By the same token, why aren’t you advocating for more opposing views like Frank Chin? It’s exactly the same old rehash: you want your agendas to push through without the opposing views even get any thought.

    Which is why you and Rabbit don’t understand why there’s this backlash – because “the opposition’s voice” is silenced…

    It’s likely that high school teachers building their own general literary curriculum that includes an Asian American book will choose Tan over Chin just because they aren’t exposed to Frank Chin.

    If you keep pushing for more Tan/Kingston type of literature, then who’s going to know about Chin? You make excuses for the lack of opposing views but at the same time only advocate for your political views. I get it; and you for sure get it.

    But I’m just keeping it honest here.

    That’s calling for a book ban.

    We can argue semantics of “banning books” all day long, but let’s be fair: both sides are trying to downplay their own faults and trump up their own agendas with hyperboles of the opposition.

    As for Rodger, if he knows he’s “Eurasian” but constantly plays up his whiteness, how are you going to associated his mental malfunction with 100% his Asian side’s fault?

  300. I don’t hate Asian dudes. I hate misogyny and I hate sexism. I don’t think Asian dudes have some sort of monopoly on that.

    Which then leads to the immediate followup that’s not been addressed by your political camp: why constantly ignore the likes of WM murders and racists and sexists that don’t get a word?

    Even “creepy white guys” tumblr has more “legitimacy” in terms of calling out the racist power structure in this country…

  301. “This comments really leads me to believe you’re not really Asian”

    I was going to call this out too, but he did write “to Asian girls’ FACES” which matches up to some of these creepy white bastards’ god-tier hypocrisy when they call the same girl he “respects and honors”…

    a chink whore who should get raped for rejecting him, a “supreme white gentleman”, for “hideously girly Asian men, who beat their wives with splintered bamboos while eating a dog alive with Tibet burning in the background.”

  302. These same people get to poison the minds of others with their biased views of Asian culture taken from the Chinese revolution and other less enlightened times.

    The saddest thing for me in all this is that Iris Chang is considered the foremost “expert” on WW2 Japanese atrocities and she’s married to a WM. Meanwhile, there are plenty of other Japanese (foreign) writers and artists also married to WM and they all deny the atrocities like going against the “comfort women memorials” around the US.

    Goes to show you we’re perfect examples of being played right now as the tools of WM divide-and=conquer tatics.

    The most effect way to destroy communities is to promote infighting and pit males against females and we’re the perfect examples of this…

    The same goes for US foreign policy in Asia right now…

  303. @yun Xu,

    you watched that ‘documentary’ “Seeking Asian Female” yet? It’s precisely “SOME” of these WM think that AF are submissive and WF aren’t “feminine” because of womyn’s liberation that they’re Asiaphiles going for “demure lotus blossoms.”

    the joke has been made very cynically elsewhere, but it’s absolutely true: too bad Elliot Rodger didn’t go for Asian girls because that could’ve avoided this unbelievably insane tragedy if all he was into AF because somebody out there would’ve gone for him too just by physical appearances alone. ;)

  304. @Crazy MMer

    When did I ever call you a “crazy militant”? When did I ever call you “militant loser virgin”? I never grouped you with those angry guys calling girls “cunts”, “rape wanters” etc. I never targeted you with my posts, except if you indeed have participated in calling women “cunts,” “rape wanters” etc. In that case, you really have to stop that bro.

    I don’t have rage against anyone (unless they call my mom or sister a “rape wanter”), but I do have my share of frustration and anger. I advocate peace by harboring and channeling the anger I feel. I ascribe more to the MLK Jr way (victory through restraint) rather than the Malcolm X way (victory through attack).

    And I said many racist white guys are two-faced conniving liars, hiding their racism and acting nice to Asian girls in order to get easy pussy. I don’t understand your logic. How does me putting down those white guys and calling them conniving con-artists make you think I’m a white guy?

  305. Jenn wrote –

    “…self-assurance, honour, integrity, intelligence and respect; traits that I believe many Asian American men already possess in spades; traits that I believe truly define manhood.”

    Guys, don’t just see the negative stuff. Jenn doesn’t see all Asian American men in a negative light. Don’t demonize her because of your disagreements.

  306. re:
    “Seeking Asian Female”
    “The same goes for US foreign policy in Asia right now”

    I saw the first and I agree with the second.

    I tried explaining how rubbish like elliot rodger perfectly represent how many of these creepy white guys with yellow fever are – worthless misogynistic (the men’s rights movement and mgtow) racists pieces of shit that hate women, are rejected by society, and are embraced by naive Asian females.

    They’re basically ticking time bombs.

    But, don’t tell that to “color blind” Asian females who see these walking turds through industrial-strength beer goggles.

    It’s a huge threat to their safety yet the preeminent Asian feminist activist Dr Admiral General Fang doesn’t write a word about it. Instead she offers us the following explanation: “it’s complicated”

    I can’t really hate on Iris. I hope she’s in a better place. Poor woman. Reading about the Nanking massacre almost made me insane. It was hell on earth.

  307. Piggy Rabbit,

    That’s pretty interesting about the online dating. I’ve found from experience that most Asian women and practically all non-Asian women filter out Asian men from their search criteria, so Asian men don’t even appear in their searches.

    So I found approaching girls in real life had a much better (still poor, but much better than online dating) success rate than online.

    Is that not true for younger women? Do they not automatically filter out Asian guys anymore?

    The dating apps I use don’t allow for search criteria, except for age and geographic distance. I don’t use sites like OK Cupid because I think they overcomplicate matters (i.e. search criteria and agonizing quizzes). Look, let’s be honest. At the preliminary dating stage, the only questions that really matter are: (1) do I want to spend 1-2 hours talking to this person, and (2) do I find this person physically attractive? Everything else flows from there. You can’t, and shouldn’t, try finding soulmates even before you make face-to-face contact.

    That being said, I’m quite certain that if all else were equal but I were White, I’d be doing better. Not that I’m doing poorly, but a disproportionately high % of my matches have come from Asian girls. Not that I’m unhappy about this by any means, but when only about 10% of the people I’ve “liked” are Asian yet they make up, say, 40-50% of my matches, then something is a bit askew, right? If I’m attractive to these girls, why aren’t I as attractive to White, Black, Latina, or Indian girls?

    It’s pretty clear to me that certain groups have been conditioned to view Asian guys more favorably than others. The encouraging sign is that those “certain groups” have been increasing in size. But it’s still a barrier that most girls have to overcome before they start to view Asian guys in the same way they view other guys.

  308. Crazy MMer,

    Which then leads to the immediate followup that’s not been addressed by your political camp: why constantly ignore the likes of WM murders and racists and sexists that don’t get a word?

    Asian feminists have been complaining about “Yellow Fever” for quite a while. Check out articles like this one: http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/3180-why-yellow-fever-is-different-than-having-a-type-

    The problem that most Asian American guys have is that in our view, the conversation often seems to boil down to: “In this mass of creepy White male fetishists, why can’t an Asian woman find a nice normal White male?”

    Asian men aren’t even in the equation, and the Asian feminists become angry that you’re trying to control their sexual choices (even though many of them are doing that to themselves by implicitly or explicitly limiting themselves to White men).

    If you keep pushing for more Tan/Kingston type of literature, then who’s going to know about Chin? You make excuses for the lack of opposing views but at the same time only advocate for your political views. I get it; and you for sure get it.

    Why are we still fixated on the Tan vs. Chin fight? I think the only people who really like Amy Tan now are middle aged White women. Why not talk about Lee Chang Rae, who is held up as the foremost Asian American author now? I read Native Speaker, and one of the reasons that I didn’t like it is because it’s Korean American MALE protagonist seems to place very little value on his ethnic heritage. It’s presented more as a burden that he has to overcome in order to be happy.

    And please stop dumbing down this discussion by using terms like “Dr. Admiral Fang.” Your issue is not really with Jenn, right? I understand that you’ve probably had some terribly unfair life experiences. But taking it out on the internet won’t help. On the spectrum of “being angry about something and talking about it” to “living your life to improve your situation,” the balance should probably be around 20-80 or 30-70. But in your case, perhaps it’s reversed.

  309. So much crazy in this thread. In general, the notion that Jenn ‘hates’ Asian men, or anyone for that matter, is neither reasonable or accurate. What’s clear from these recent comments is that some Asian men focus their entire political identity on interpersonal interactions only they really care about. It’s pathetic, really.

    In an era where some men of color face unwarranted physical searches and police detainment for the crime of being Black in public, where immigration officials scour southwestern deserts for undocumented immigrants to detain without speedy trials who cross deserts under inhumane conditions, where women still make seventy cents for every dollar generated by men, some Asian men want the bulk of Asian American political activism to focus on their dating success rates.

    Just how privileged are you guys?

    Interracial dating is a non-issue politically. All citizens, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, or anything else, retain free association rights. The only way to alleviate the concerns some of you express about Asian female outmarriage is to deny Asian women free association rights. That absurdity will not generate support from anyone sane.

    So come off it fellas. Jenn’s not anti-Asian men. Period. Those who believe she is because she recognizes that the acidic misogynlinity that drove Elliot Rodger parallels the acidic misogynlinity that drives some of you only add supporting evidence to her argument.

  310. @Pozhal

    I don’t speak for Jenn. But let’s be clear: we don’t play Oppression Olympics because some people would lose. All oppressions aren’t created equal. I don’t find it reasonable to consider the dating concerns of Asian American men equal to the police brutality concerns of African American men. Further, I don’t believe reducing female choice is a logical solution to male sexual conquest concerns. Elliot Rodger described himself as someone who deserved sexual success with young White women, and responded with bigoted despondency when he learned of young Black men who found the success he craved with his target demographic.

    Those who read his manifesto largely recoiled from his disgusting perspectives, because at base he so craved personal sexual gratification that he’d deny women the opportunities to make self-interested choices about their personal lives. That’s really sexist. When I read Yun Xu and others in this thread, they make the same argument.

    Newsflash. Whatever effects emasculation stereotypes impose on Asian male dating prospects, nothing justifies telling Asian women that they have somehow disrespected themselves or their race if/when they engage an interracial relationship. I don’t care how lonely some of these guys are on Friday nights – when Jenn is derided as a sellout who hates Asian men, I’m certain it’s less about what she writes and more about who she dates.

    Her entire blog – and this post especially – supports and defines Asian American feminism, largely around concepts like personal freedom and intellectual autonomy. Asian American misogyny is not welcome in this space. But Jenn speaks for herself. Speaking only for myself, it’s ludicrous to consider Asian male dating issues worthy of serious race conversation. To me, this is a non-issue.

    You could replace every A-list White Hollywood leading man with tall, muscular Asian American male actors, and cast them only in the most heroic protagonist roles completely devoid of racial humor, where these youthful Daniel Dae Kim clones engage in graphic on-screen intercourse with every lithe blonde rom-com starlet of the last five years in every movie, and it wouldn’t change a thing. Cast Sung Kang in all of Bradley Cooper’s movie roles; hell, Warner Brothers can remake The Notebook starring Jennifer Lawrence and Jeremy Lin in his feature film debut – and it still wouldn’t help some of the lonely, angry Asian American male trolls in this thread escort a twenty-something White girl home after cocktails and bad jokes on Saturday night.

    Some of these guys can’t get right. It’s no one’s fault but theirs. Further, it’s not political. When Black women berate Black men over self-hate and Eurocentric beauty standards when they notice the brothers with White girls on their arms, that distaste isn’t political. Those sisters are just lonely. Let’s refrain from further elevating loneliness into a conversation on misogyny. Maybe then I wouldn’t have to get so honest about avoiding the Oppression Olympics.

  311. You could replace every A-list White Hollywood leading man with tall, muscular Asian American male actors, and cast them only in the most heroic protagonist roles completely devoid of racial humor, where these youthful Daniel Dae Kim clones engage in graphic on-screen intercourse with every lithe blonde rom-com starlet of the last five years in every movie, and it wouldn’t change a thing. Cast Sung Kang in all of Bradley Cooper’s movie roles; hell, Warner Brothers can remake The Notebook starring Jennifer Lawrence and Jeremy Lin in his feature film debut – and it still wouldn’t help some of the lonely, angry Asian American male trolls in this thread escort a twenty-something White girl home after cocktails and bad jokes on Saturday night.

    It would… if you assume all women are so brain-dead that they just emulate the things they see on TV. Where I disagree with Snoopy (and yes, I do) is that I think there is reason for some Asian American men to want to work to change anti-Asian American male stereotypes, and that they do feel personal affront (regarding self-esteem) when it comes to the impact of those stereotypes. But, it’s about what you do with that cause that bothers me: I agree with changing stereotypes and the impacts that they can have relative to self-esteem, what I don’t agree with is externalizing and channeling that anger towards the ideology that Asian American women are “doing Asian American wrong” in some way by denying us agency over our own sexuality.

    The underlying undercurrent here is the high emphasis placed on sex. That who you fuck is a meaningful descriptor of who you are as a man. That who I fuck matters equally or more than what I say as an Asian American woman. That who Asian American men fuck is a political act that leads to sociopolitical salvation. I think that’s valuing people based more on how we expect them to behave (and who defines those “good” behaviours?), rather than respecting and allowing them to be who they are as people by engaging their minds.

    As a feminist, this kind of ideology chafes especially because I think it runs concurrent with how women’s sexuality is generally oppressed and repressed as ways to keep women “well-behaved”. It perpetuates the objectification and commodification of women that leads to rape culture. It justifies the kind of brutal misogyny I post about in this thread, but also behaviour we see in larger society. And, as this post outline, I think this — which is a fundamental rationale of misogylinity — also hurts men as much as it hurts women.

    Because I consider Asian American men allies in a larger political struggle, I’d like to find ways where we can dismantle systems that hurt us both. To that end, I disagree with you, Snoopy, that this is irrelevant — I do think that having conversations about misogyny and misogylinity can help to speak to some (Asian American) men on issues they are passionate about; just in ways I hope can subvert innately regressive sexual and gender politics towards a more progressive solution.

  312. Why are we still fixated on the Tan vs. Chin fight? I think the only people who really like Amy Tan now are middle aged White women. Why not talk about Lee Chang Rae, who is held up as the foremost Asian American author now? I read Native Speaker, and one of the reasons that I didn’t like it is because it’s Korean American MALE protagonist seems to place very little value on his ethnic heritage. It’s presented more as a burden that he has to overcome in order to be happy.

    Agreed. If we were going to pick one book to represent Asian American literature, that book would be written by Chang Rae Lee. I think Native Speaker speaks to identity issues, and fiction is not intended to be propaganda, so the point is in the journey of the book, not the destination. Like a book for its literary adventure and the subject matter it tackles, not whether or not you think it came to the “right” point. I recently read “On Such a Full Sea”, and I think it is a feminist book, and would rank it alongside other seminal feminist Asian American texts.

    I think we would be hard-pressed to find a classroom in this day and age who defined Asian American literature by Amy Tan. The literary genre has, itself, progressed and been enriched by better writers. If a teacher is choosing Tan as representative, that teacher is already ignorant of the entire genre.

  313. J. Lamb,

    I don’t find it reasonable to consider the dating concerns of Asian American men equal to the police brutality concerns of African American men.

    And the police brutality concerns of African American men don’t become reasonable to consider when you think of the cultural and literal genocide of Native American men. Hey, at least we have President Obama and Kanye West, right?

    Obviously, I don’t believe in the things that I just said above because I consider myself to be racially progressive. I expect that you do as well, so I’m surprised that you adopt the kind of framework that a lot of racists and their apologists do.

    This isn’t just about “dating.” A lot of Asian guys complain about it because it’s the most common manifestation of the larger problem, which is the de-privileging of Asian men by emasculation. This isn’t some trivial matter. Historically, dominant classes have sought to establish privilege and authority over lower classes by emasculating them.

    There’s plenty of room to discuss all our issues, even if they aren’t all mortally threatening in equal ways.

  314. Asian feminists have been complaining about “Yellow Fever” for quite a while. Check out articles like this one: http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/3180-why-yellow-fever-is-different-than-having-a-type-

    The problem that most Asian American guys have is that in our view, the conversation often seems to boil down to: “In this mass of creepy White male fetishists, why can’t an Asian woman find a nice normal White male?”

    Where in that article does it say that? That article is about explaining how racial fetishes are racist, and not “beneficial”. It seems to me like you are projecting some stuff on to that article that really aren’t there.

  315. which is the de-privileging of Asian men by emasculation

    Are you arguing that Asian American men do not have male privilege?

  316. Not that I’m unhappy about this by any means, but when only about 10% of the people I’ve “liked” are Asian yet they make up, say, 40-50% of my matches, then something is a bit askew, right? If I’m attractive to these girls, why aren’t I as attractive to White, Black, Latina, or Indian girls?

    Perhaps I misunderstand how these apps work, but I thought that the matching was based on an algorithm that does matching for people, and are biased towards matching two people based on same-race.

    Also, this is anecdotal. You have no idea what the experiences of a non-Asian person on your dating app, with your profile, would be like.

    You can, however, run that experiment by copying your entire profile word-for-word, and replacing your picture with that of a White man, Black man, or Indian man of similar appearance as your current profile picture. I’d be curious to see your results.

    But keep in mind that online dating studies are highly unscientific: you are self-selecting your population through your choice of technology and filtering the interaction so that ONLY superficial data are prioritized and used; theoretically, you may also be filtering your population and selecting for people who are looking for superficial interactions or even casual sex. The relevance of online dating studies to the complexity of racial attitudes have yet to be made, and I think is a giant disclaimer that should be pasted on the whole collection of studies that are nonetheless passed around by websites that allow people to not think very carefully about the science.

  317. @Pozhal

    This isn’t just about “dating.” A lot of Asian guys complain about it because it’s the most common manifestation of the larger problem, which is the de-privileging of Asian men by emasculation. This isn’t some trivial matter. Historically, dominant classes have sought to establish privilege and authority over lower classes by emasculating them.

    One of the problems, however, is the assertion made by you here, and others, that Asian male emasculation should be the foremost issue for our community. You, too, are playing oppression olympics here by arguing that it is “the most common manifestation of the larger problem”. You argue (and also did in a previous comment) that it trumps the wealth gap, police brutality, immigration issues, etc., for Asian American men.

    You can even make that argument. I’m not saying it’s invalid on its face. But I think often times it is made in the absence of hard data or evidence to support your assertion that it (“dating”, which you and I both should agree is the framework through emasculation is discussed throughout the community) is “the most common manifestation” for Asian men, and ergo should be a community priority. Too often, it comes across as “this is how I’d like my life to be better, because I have the economic and language and ableist privilege to not have to worry about poverty or police brutality or voter disenfranchisement or community health”. In so doing, we forget, of course, that for many Asian American men, those privileges are not shared; that whether or not he is viewed in movies as the “hero” or whether or not he has difficulty getting a date on his dating app is not his primary concern. Putting food on his table is his primary concern. I’ve coined the phrase “trickle down social justice” for this mindset: the assertion that we should be working to improve the lives of the most privileged of us, as if victories that achieve equality will trickle down to those with less privilege.

    Yet, I would love to be convinced of your viewpoint, Pozhal; in 10 years, the data that have been presented have been thin at best (outmarriage rates usually being the main piece of hard evidence, supplemented more recently with those online dating “studies”). It’s just not very intellectually rigorous to allow the community to not have to do this, and yet very few people are willing to challenge this assertion and do better. I think it’s important: if we are to convince others outside the community, we need to convince ourselves first.

    If you want to argue that Asian male emasculation is the final frontier of Asian American racism, and should be the priority for all Asian Americans in lieu of other social justice causes, it is necessary to make the case for how it produces real-world impacts that can be considered alongside police brutality, economic violence, community healthcare, and CIR — all current major priorities for the Asian American community. But you need to actually demonstrate the real-world impact. I hold myself to the same standard: When I talk about Asian American feminism, and the impacts of sexism in the community, I talk about data. I talk about glass ceilings and bamboo ceilings. I talk about suicide and depression rates. Even here in this post, when I talk about misogyny, I present evidence in the form of representative tweets. I try to contextualize real world -isms.

    So, please, I ask in all earnestness: make your case. Make the argument that Asian male emasculation — through the framework of dating — is “the most common manifestation of [a] larger problem”.

  318. @J. Lamb!! >.<

    J. Lamb wrote:

    "I don’t find it reasonable to consider the dating concerns of Asian American men equal to the police brutality concerns of African American men."

    "The only way to alleviate the concerns some of you express about Asian female outmarriage is to deny Asian women free association rights."

    I'm sorry J.Lamb but I (using your own usage of "ludicrous") find your posts quite ludicrous. Before you get defensive, please follow my thought process and hear me out.

    I have some black friends who insist it is harder for them to catch a taxi then whites and Asians. They also say they are often followed in stores and watched closely by both whites and Asian store owners, or watching closely by cops when driving (the Driving While Black phenomenon). They say it's humiliating at times. I could easily dismiss their "privileged" complaints…after all, who cares about catching a taxi or being watched closely… it's a political non-issue compared to, say, Asian women being sex trafficked. Now THERE'S REAL pain and suffering.

    But why compare and contrast racism?

    All racism is wrong, regardless of degree.

    I personally love the fact that Asian women are seen as physically attractive now. When my sister was in junior high, she was sad because all the boys at her school only wanted to only date white girls, and Asian faces were considered unattractive at that time and place. It blows my mind that white society as a whole now considers Asian women's faces to be attractive… because, face it, Asian men and women have similar facial features: smaller eyes, flatter faces, wider cheekbones, etc. I love the fact that Asian men and non-Asian men now find Asian women attractive. Having seen the other spectrum, I think it's a wonderful thing.

    No one except misguided bitter Asian men wants to stop Asian women from outdating. In fact, I welcome Asian women outdating. My sister is married to a white guy, and I love the guy, because he is an upstanding human being.

    In fact, I just want humans to date humans. We are all the same inside. That is my personal belief.

    Unfortunately, many female humans of white and Asian descent don't consider male humans of Asian descent to be worthy or their attention. And many male humans of white and black descent trivialize the issue, or worse yet, perpetrate it and worsen it (have you ever told a Asian "small dick" joke J.Lamb? I certainly hope not).

    I love it that white men and black men now find Asian women attractive. I love it that white and Asian women find black men attractive, with the rise of black (and part black) figures such as Denzel Washington and Lebron James and Obama and Neil Degrasse Tyson (one of my inspirations), etc. Public perception of black males is slowly changing from "dangerous gangster thugs" and "lazy unintelligent criminals" to a diverse variety of different male archetypes, from stylish handsome romeos to skillful athletes to intelligent scholars. I love interracial attraction because it means that stupid underlying racial stereotypes and assumptions are being tossed aside, to be replaced by the notion that we are all simply human. I respect your African-American forebears so much (as well as white people and Asian people who fought discrimination), because we Asian Americans of today have ridden on their coattails of fighting segegration and discrimination, so that we don't have to use the "colored section" or sit in the back of the bus today.

    "The only way to alleviate the concerns some of you express about Asian female outmarriage is to deny Asian women free association rights."

    That is ludicrous J.Lamb.

    I don't even considering "limiting Asian women's dating choices" as even a tiny part of any possible solution to the problem of Asian male esmasculation and belittling. In fact, I'm fine with even more Asian girls dating out. Get that?

    But I just don't want it to be at the expense and stepping on the backs of Asian men anymore. Read that last sentence again.

    I just don't want it to be at the expense and stepping on the backs of Asian men anymore.

    Because a not-insignificant part of why the truly privileged WMAF (white male Asian female) couple is so popular right now is that both WM and AF look down on Asian men, vocally and publicly, causing "bad marketing" so to speak when it comes to Asian men's dating chances, especially when Asian females are so very, very vocal about it. How many times have you heard an Asian girl say "I don't date Asian guys." I bet more than a few. And do you denounce it when you hear it J. Lamb?

    If wider American sentiment can change regarding what is attractive (like they did for Asian women and black men), maybe one day society at large will consider Asian men attractive too. Because right now, I am by default considered unattractive in America (in Asia it is quite different, I am considered above-average in looks according to the many girls I encountered, so there is definitely a societal component). That shit hurts. I don't like to be considered unattractive just because.

    Just because my skin color!

    Asian men being given a FAIR SHOT at love and relationships is all I ask. To be judged by the content of my character and not on some preconceived notion due to the color of my skin.

    If Asian men are simply given a fair shot, more Asian men will gain confidence to date more women in general, both Asian and non-Asian women. I'm 40. Trust me, there's a lot of lonely Asian male bachelors in my circle. A lot of us, our confidence has been stripped away by society and the prevalence of "I don't date Asian guys" that we encounter in the "general wild" (I don't hear it much from Asian girls who hang out mostly with Asian people, but Asian girls who hang out mainly in circles of white guys say it almost all the DAMN TIME, and loudly and proudly too).

    I know it's a "non-issue" for you J. Lamb. No big deal in your eyes right? But believe me when I say THAT SHIT HURTS.

    So again, I don't want to limit Asian girls outdating, m'kay? It's their choice to date who they want, as long as they don't do it out of anti-Asian-male racism.

    Let me offer part of my solution. I already (read my previous posts) said that Asian men must improve themselves, upgrade themselves. That's the core meat of the strategy.

    But also, another small part of the solution would be — instead of FEWER Asian women outdating — MORE Asian men outdating. Asian men outdating more would be a lever and fulcrum that will help dispel any remaining notions that Asian men are inferior dates. Why? I've seen it's effects personally….I know a number of white women married to Asian men, and some of them have babies.

    A lot of times, an Asian woman will say "I don't date Asian guys" in order to curry favor with white men, and perhaps flatter white men. BUT, if an Asian girl ever says that in front of a white woman married to an Asian man, with a baby to boot — DO YOU KNOW HOW STUPID IT SOUNDS THEN? It actually becomes very distasteful and offensive to hear to all within earshot.

    When said in general, it sounds mildly palatable, it's "just preference" right? But to say it in front of a non-Asian woman married to and bearing the child of an Asian man — that shit sounds terribly racist, or at least mean and prejudiced, and such an Asian woman will be rightfully called out on it when they make such a statement, instead of cheered on and protected as they currently are.

    Just think about it. Imagine that very scenario. Now imagine it on a nationwide scale. It is a way of denouncing such words and banishing them forever. I don't ever want my Asian sons (if I have any) to hear the sentence "I don't date Asian guys." Ever. Got it J. Lamb?

    And I don't say this because I think non-Asian women are any better that Asian women; they are most certainly not. Women are the same, regardless of race, and I love my* Asian women in general. *Disclaimer: the word "my" denotes kinship, not ownership, just like I don't mean I "own" "my" mom or "my" dad.

    But if an Asian man is truly indeed attracted to a certain non-Asian women (and not just trying to "get her" simply for validation or other fucked-up reason), he should be free to pursue her and should be given a fair shot with her without having to face all this prejudice and self-doubt.

    And forget all the "marriage statistics" about Asian American men currently supposedly out-marrying at similar rates as Asian American women. That's MARRIAGE. Go to Los Angeles and simply look around. Go to UCLA and look around. Go to Hollywood and look around. Go to Seattle and look around. When it comes to casual dating (let's define it as a couple walking around holding hands), the ratio of WMAF (white male Asian female) to AMXF (Asian male non-Asian female) is closer to 99 to 1 (or I could even estimate even 999 to 1 in some places). I don't include XMAF because it's so rare compared to WMAF.

    Things are slowly changing though, even for Asian guys, and Hollywood does make a huge impact on what is considered attractive. Look at John Cho… he's Asian but has more of a classically "white" bone structure. Compare him to Sung Kang or Daniel Dae Kim…they look more ethnically Asian. But as they gain popularity, you notice more and more non-Asian women commenting on blogs and websites that they are beginning to find Daniel Kim and Sung Kang attractive.

    And many non-Asian girls are starting to find Asian men attractive because of the rise of Kpop stars globally, men who traditionally look "feminine" according to most white and black American males. I look more like Sung Kang or a "feminine" Kpop star than I look like Gerard Butler, so I AM ALL FOR IT. That means, by correlation, these girls are also more open to finding ME attractive. I love it!

    I am all for getting more Asian-looking male stars in Hollywood, and yes it does impact Asian guys' lives in real life. Media influence is huge. That's why black people complained when blacks were cast as "minstrels" back in the day…blacks wanted to be seen as heroes, good people, because it affected people's self esteem as well as caused non-blacks to make negative assumptions based on what they saw in the media. Why is diverse representation important? Why do we need people who "look like us" on screen and in literature? Come on J. Lamb, you can't truly be that backward in your thinking regarding this issue. Just look at this:

    http://blog.angryasianman.com/2014/06/why-weneeddiversebooks.html#more

    Lots of Asian women I know say they never really considered black men to be handsome before Will Smith and Denzel Washington came along. Hollywood representation is huge! It has even benefitted you to some degree J. Lamb. You think if the only black men in movies were still minstrel acts, you don't think that would affect public perception of you?

    Regarding the masculinity issue, I think what some Asian guys here take issue with is Jenn seemingly setting forth her own "prescription" telling Asian men how to be masculine, and thinking that her suggestion is the only solution she thinks is viable, instead of the start of a discussion.

    It would probably enrage feminists if I fully supported Rumor Willis's recent attempt at a feminist statement by walking bare chested through New York (Google it if you don't know what I'm talking about, but it's NSFW though), and if I said — butting in as a man — that the way for women to really be a woman and "empower" feminism is by similarly walking around in public bare-chested.

    Women are already objectified and sexualized, so honestly…I don't really have a clue whether Rumor Willis hurt women or helped women by her actions.

    But that's the thing. I don't have a clue, so I defer.

    I defer to Jenn and other feminists to say whether they support or decry Rumor Willis's actions. And then I'll take to heart whatever Jenn suggests is the best course of action by men to support feminists, and not argue with her about it. After all, she knows more about the issue than I do.

    Because I honestly have no earthly idea if women embracing such brazen sexuality is really the answer…my instinct is to think they'd be better off fighting such stereotypes instead of trying to co-opt them. But again, I defer to Jenn.

    One time in another post, a commenter made a post about the black church, and Jenn deferred to you (J. Lamb) because she basically said you — as a black person — should probably be the one to reply, being that you are black and know more about the black church than she does.

    Well, she should offer the same privilege to Asian males. Since she isn't an Asian male, she should defer to Asian males and ask them would be the best course of action for them, and the best way that Asian women can help them, instead of saying "this is how Asian men should define their masculinity." I'm not saying that's what she's doing, but it can come across that way to some people.

    Jenn should defer to actual Asian males on the issue of masculinity, and take to heart their suggestions. After all, they know more about the issue of Asian male masculinity and emasculation than she does.

    Asian men are already seen as non-sexual, lonely, nerds who don't make good dating material. Embracing that image and focusing on being a good respectable man without addressing the very real avoidance of Asian men due to widespread negative beliefs isn't truly an immediate PRACTICAL solution.

    My personal insight as an Asian man (which gives me more of a right to speak on this issue than J.Lamb or Jenn) tells me that we'd be better off fighting the "unmanly" stereotypes directly instead of co-opting "polite respectfulness" and trying to pass that off as the new archetype of a man.

    Don't get me wrong, I think co-opting that stereotype will produce SOME effects long term, but face it man, being denied dating and sexual opportunities is an immediate issue that hurts TODAY. It would for any group (just ask black women and how it hurts for them to be considered "ugly" and "ghetto" before they even open their mouths).

    And likewise, J. Lamb, you should defer to Asian males and let us state what is and is not important to us. I don't presume to minimize any of your racial concerns, so don't minimize mine.

    Dating is indeed a political issue to Asian men, because is a big part of those things that define human beings….we were made, designed, created, evolved — whatever you want to believe — for social connection and relationships. It is the heart of who we are. We all — ALL of us, every single one — live for relationships. We breathe relationships. To deny most potential relationships to one certain demographic due to widespread negative beliefs about them is to destroy a critical fundamental aspect of happiness to that demographic.

    I would say that's arguably more important than not being able to catch a taxi or being followed in store, but it's not about the actual event… it's the impact of the event.

    Being denied dates and relationships and sitting alone Friday nights sounds like no big deal to you (because you haven't been forced into that situation based on negative widespread beliefs that black men suck as dates), but I personally tell you that it grates at the soul and is personally infuriating.

    Being denied catching a taxi or being followed in a store doesn't sound like a big deal to some Asian men (because Asian men haven't experienced it based on negative widespread beliefs that Asian men routinely shoplift), but I can only imagine it grates at the soul and is personally infuriating.

    Even the vast overwhelming imbalance of WMAF dating couples right now is A POLITICAL statement in and of itself — the politics of the reduction of the Asian male.

    You wrote:

    "Speaking only for myself, it’s ludicrous to consider Asian male dating issues worthy of serious race conversation. To me, this is a non-issue."

    That comment is seriously offensive to me. Don't tell me as an Asian man what I should and should not be concerned about. If dating issues shouldn't be a real concern for us, than black people not catching cabs and being followed in stores and cops should also be a non-issue for blacks. I bet that makes you a bit angry doesn't it? Who am I as an Asian man to tell a black person what is or isn't a non issue.

    See?

    As a black man dating an Asian woman, with all the associated BS that it generates, I expected more support from you.

    In fact, I think you owe an apology to Asian males, sir.

    If you won't apologize, at least be willing be open and listen, and perhaps re-examine your own thoughts on the issue.

  319. Jenn wrote:

    “Are you arguing that Asian American men do not have male privilege?”

    Only in certain circles. Such as work (we probably have the largest privilege especially in tech field, although not as much as white men, who are the leaders of the tech field and have established a “bamboo ceiling” against Asian males – another topic for another time).

    In love and relationships, Asian American men have LESS privilege than every other group except possibly black females. In dating, Asian American women have TONS more privilege than Asian men, and arguably more than white women. In fact, Asian American men are almost disenfranchised in terms of how difficult dating can be.

    Not to say dating isn’t difficult for EVERYONE, because it is. But it is especially difficult for Asian men.

  320. And J. Lamb –

    You wrote:

    “What’s clear from these recent comments is that some Asian men focus their entire political identity on interpersonal interactions ONLY THEY REALLY CARE ABOUT [emphasis mine]. IT’S PATHETIC [emphasis mine], really.”

    This is really offensive as well.

    So one shouldn’t fight an injustice because one personally doesn’t care about it?

    I care about feminist issues because girls tell me it’s an issue. They cared enough to speak up about it. Otherwise I probably never would have seen it. Nor would I have cared — misogyny has never affected me PERSONALLY. But I care BECAUSE they care. You understand?

    I care about black women saying they feel marginalized and “uglified” (my word) because they care about it. If I didn’t know they cared, it wouldn’t be any skin off my back. And painting black women in an unfavorable light is a very real phenomenon (the uncouth “ghetto” sista stereotype anyone?). It’s not just a bitter “lonely” ugly woman thing. You should know better, J. Lamb.

    I care about black people being harassed and jailed at a disproportionate percentage because black people say they care about it. I have never been followed or jailed myself. But I still care about it because black people care about it.

    If someone cares about something enough to speak out about it, we should all about it care too.

    If I only focused on the things only I cared about, I wouldn’t do a damn thing about misogyny or anti-black racism. Because it doesn’t hurt me DIRECTLY. You understand?

    And please don’t go about calling other people pathetic. That’s insulting and offensive.

    I could easily call you an insensitive “pathetic” person too, especially regarding the comment about “lonely black women” but I’ll refrain because I don’t know you personally.

  321. @Snoopy
    “personal sexual gratification that he’d deny women the opportunities to make self-interested choices about their personal lives. That’s really sexist. When I read Yun Xu and others in this thread, they make the same argument”

    You are seeing things that I and many others here never wrote. You can personally ask Jenn if I gave her shit for dating you. Ask her.

    No one here to my knowledge is trying to control af dating choices. I’m not saying af should never date out – just be careful, because lots of these two-faced creepy asiaphiles don’t respect af (can see their behavior after being rejected) and hate Asians in general.

    Here’s why people suspect Jenn is anti-Asian male in case you missed it. BTW, it has nothing to do with her dating you. Stop making it all about you, man!

    It’s the absence of articles on the REAL
    1. Numerous white guys murdering Asian females
    2. sexpat disease in Asia disguised as esl “teachers”
    3. creepywhite guys tumblr – hacked, courtesy of “white rugged heroes”
    4. far higher divorce rates amongst af/wm than af/am pairs
    5. far higher std rates in af than am
    6. mgtow/mra groups who hate white women in general but seek “submissive and know her place” Asian females . They’re like little elliot rodgers in the making.
    7. usa military rapes in Japan, South Korea, and Philipines.

    All this and more is ignored. Meanwhile….

    1. She links David Choe’s ALLEGED (turned out to be fake) sex fantasy to Asian misogyny.
    2. Writes about the Asian “misogylinity” after three innocent am(s) were stabbed to death by an Asian-hating “beautiful eurasian”, who clearly values whiteness since he himself was “descended from british aristocracy”

    You can honestly look at her blog history and say, “Yup, she’s an Asian male ally!” ??

  322. @Jenn & Everyone

    You know, Asian men complaining about being emasculated is akin to someone with severe hay fever complaining about their allergies.

    If you suffer from it, it can make your life hell. -But no one really takes your complaints seriously.

    “Oh, you have to call in sick to work today because you’re suffering from ALLERGIES?? C’mon you’re not really sick!”

    Likewise,

    “Oh so you’re blaming all of your problems dating on MEDIA STEREOTYPES of Asian men? Is this a real problem or something you’ve concocted to mask your own personal deficiencies???”

    And sure, in the spectrum of serious problems, allergies is to cancer as Asian emasculation is to AF domestic violence / rape….

    But if you’re going through it, it can still make you pretty miserable.

  323. There’s plenty of room to discuss all our issues, even if they aren’t all mortally threatening in equal ways. – Pozhal

    Even were this true, it still wouldn’t justify the emphasis placed on Asian male dating concerns in this and every other feminist conversation among Asian Americans. Here a post on misogyny within Asian America has precipitated another Asian male dating dialogue, where the aggrieved whine about their dating prospects and drown out those who oppose misogyny in the community. It’s ridiculous.

    And it’s not political. Pozhal, there’s no solution to this so-called problem that doesn’t require Asian American women to curtail their freedom of association. Since that’s not a solution, what are people supposed to do? Watch Asian men hijack every feminist dialogue to remind us that people aren’t sexually interested in some of them? Who cares?

    You can honestly look at her blog history and say, “Yup, she’s an Asian male ally! – Yun Xu

    Why should she have to be? Certainly Jenn thinks she is, and you disagree. But again – having that conversation distracts from the one she intended to have about Elliot Rodger’s misogyny and its parallels with the misogyny she’s fought on her blog for over a decade. Wonder why?

  324. I have some black friends who insist it is harder for them to catch a taxi then whites and Asians. They also say they are often followed in stores … They say it’s humiliating at times. I could easily dismiss their “privileged” complaints ….. – Piggy Rabbit

    Piggy Rabbit, maybe you should dismiss their complaints.

    Seriously. Failing to catch a taxi or being followed in a retail store can range from mildly annoying to completely infuriating, but these experiences amount to the interpersonal bigotry non-discrimination laws cannot erase from free markets. I would consider excessive police attention another matter entirely, given the use of state power to directly endanger certain citizens’ freedom, but that’s a conversation for another space. The point is that if these issues do not concern you, because they don’t happen to you, it’s fair to not care.

    Everyone doesn’t experience police brutality, or rape threats, or require gender reassignment surgery, or fear immigration officials. Everyone doesn’t have the same experiences. Most progressives respond to these experiential differences with blanket empathy, where all narratives hold equal weight. I consider this folly. There are useful benefits to avoiding the Oppression Olympics, benefits that you and Pozhal have eloquently pointed out. Detriments also happen when we pretend that everyone’s identity gripes are worthy of a protest march.

    For my calculus, anti-Asian male emasculation stereotypes are worth combating every time they emerge in popular culture. We don’t need anymore Fu Manchus or penis jokes. Hell no. But fighting the lackluster success some Asian males experience when dating is not a cause I wish to champion, because it’s not a cause! No guy is guaranteed dating success with the woman of their dreams. So, no, Asian male dating does not a political cause make, and I have the right to not care about it.

    Frankly, I think for myself. I’m not going to defer to anyone else’s judgment about a political issue. If you think an issue is worth considering, make the case, whether it’s Asian male dating or Blacks and cabs. But if people listen and judge your argument wanting, they have the right to reject your reasoning and your concerns. You can reformulate the argument and try again of course, for as long as it takes to spark change. But you have to make the case, not bitch about your personal narrative and expect no one listening to challenge you.

    The whole idea of fairness in dating is ludicrous to me. There’s no fairness in the real world, just people. Often, people are racist. The women who won’t date Asian men just because they’re Asian are racist. But neither you nor I need elevate their racism to the number one concern expressed by political Asian Americana. Yes, I’m Black. Not Asian. I’m still telling you that those women’s racism when dating is not important.

    All women have the right to say no to dating you, me, and everyone who looks like us for whatever reasons they feel like using. Sometimes men of color are rejected because of our race, sometimes we are desired because of our race. Racism operates both motivations. Life is not fair. Move on.

  325. And painting black women in an unfavorable light is a very real phenomenon (the uncouth “ghetto” sista stereotype anyone?). It’s not just a bitter “lonely” ugly woman thing. – Piggy Rabbit

    So here’s the problem: fighting the stereotypes White supremacy associates with Black women is not equal to advocacy to improve Black women’s dating success rates. These are not the same. I can support attempts to dismantle pop culture’s undesirable, mannish stereotypes about Black women without any concern whatsoever for how Black women fare in Western dating. People can oppose needless television and movie depictions of nerdy, meek Asian men without having an opinion on Asian male dating concerns.

    Frankly, these stereotypes can harm wealth creation, voting coalitions, employment prospects, even academic performance. These stereotype effects can be and have been quantified and studied in the sociological literature. I’m persuaded that anti-Black woman and anti-Asian male stereotypes can have horrible effects on individual lives. I’m not persuaded that the possible unwanted effects these stereotypes may have on dating prospects is or should be anyone’s political concern.

    Further, the elevation of stereotypes in dating to political parity with police brutality or American mass incarceration is hyperbolic and foolish. When we are encouraged by progressives to find all identity gripes worthy without interrogation, we deny ourselves any moral framework with which to prioritize activism. Seriously, if we place the dating concerns of some Asian men on par with the criminal justice concerns of Black men, knowing that the United States of America imprisons a larger percentage of its Black population today than South Africa did under apartheid, I will suggest that that parity is itself immoral.

    No. Everyone’s concerns aren’t that deep. If that makes me insensitive, cool. I can be insensitive and realistic at the same time.

  326. “Even were this true, it still wouldn’t justify the emphasis placed on Asian male dating concerns in this and every other feminist conversation among Asian Americans. Here a post on misogyny within Asian America has precipitated another Asian male dating dialogue, where the aggrieved whine about their dating prospects and drown out those who oppose misogyny in the community. It’s ridiculous.”

    That doesn’t make any sense at all. Because most of the asian male mysogyny Jenn is talking about in this article is caused by the issue of asian male dating. So why wouldn’t it be discussed?

  327. One of the problems, however, is the assertion made by you here, and others, that Asian male emasculation should be the foremost issue for our community. You, too, are playing oppression olympics here by arguing that it is “the most common manifestation of the larger problem”. You argue (and also did in a previous comment) that it trumps the wealth gap, police brutality, immigration issues, etc., for Asian American men.

    because I have the economic and language and ableist privilege to not have to worry about poverty or police brutality or voter disenfranchisement or community health”. In so doing, we forget, of course, that for many Asian American men, those privileges are not shared; that whether or not he is viewed in movies as the “hero” or whether or not he has difficulty getting a date on his dating app is not his primary concern. Putting food on his table is his primary concern.

    Yet, I would love to be convinced of your viewpoint, Pozhal; in 10 years, the data that have been presented have been thin at best (outmarriage rates usually being the main piece of hard evidence, supplemented more recently with those online dating “studies”). It’s just not very intellectually rigorous to allow the community to not have to do this, and yet very few people are willing to challenge this assertion and do better. I think it’s important: if we are to convince others outside the community, we need to convince ourselves first.

    If you want to argue that Asian male emasculation is the final frontier of Asian American racism, and should be the priority for all Asian Americans in lieu of other social justice causes, it is necessary to make the case for how it produces real-world impacts that can be considered alongside police brutality, economic violence, community healthcare, and CIR — all current major priorities for the Asian American community. But you need to actually demonstrate the real-world impact. I hold myself to the same standard: When I talk about Asian American feminism, and the impacts of sexism in the community, I talk about data. I talk about glass ceilings and bamboo ceilings. I talk about suicide and depression rates. Even here in this post, when I talk about misogyny, I present evidence in the form of representative tweets. I try to contextualize real world -isms.

    So, please, I ask in all earnestness: make your case. Make the argument that Asian male emasculation — through the framework of dating — is “the most common manifestation of [a] larger problem”.

    Hi Jenn, I’m new here, as an Asian American guy this topic is of great concern to me, as I do think emasculation is a common manifestation of the larger problem. There’s no hard data or stats to back up what I’m saying because currently the Asian American population is still growing at a rapid rate like any other minorities.

    However, logic and common sense tell me that perhaps two generations from now, the Asian American population will become stagnant due to the large out marriage/dating rates, emasculation rates, and Asian immigration will come to a stand still at some point.

    We have a large number of Asians immigrate to the U.S. from Asia. Sure, but do they understand the interests of Asian Americans right away? It takes at least 5 years for newly Asian immigrants to familiarize the English language and to have voters’ rights. Also, immigration is not something that will last forever, at some point it will stop.

    If a large portion of Asian American men become sexless and cannot procreate, and a large portion of Asian American women marry out, 2 generations from now where are the Asian American population gonna come from? Lack of population means disenfranchised lack of voting power would cause Asian Americans to fall behind other minority groups.

    Hapa children (mixed Asians), will they understand the interests of Asian Americans? or will more than half of them identify as non-Asians or whites (like Elliot Rodger) because being associated or identified as Asian Americans mean they’ll be discriminated against. Would they vote for politians who favor Asian American issues?

    If Asian immigration eventually stops, and Asian American men don’t have rights to procreate, two generations from now the Asian American population will become similar to the Native American Indians — stagnant, disenfranchised, and fall behind other minority groups in politics and perhaps economically as well.

    —————————————-

    Back to the topic at hand about “Misogylinity”, I wholeheartedly agree and support Jenn’s stance on misogyny, as an Asian guy I’m against those who use vulgar/offensive language toward women and I respect Asian women’s rights to date/marry whoever they choose, I have no problems with that. I just hope Asian American men can have those same rights to choose to date, marry, and procreate.

    http://reappropriate.co/?p=5755

  328. After reading through the article and some of the commentaries, it makes me realize how ill the AA world is. As someone who came from Asia originally, I see three alternate universes. One is that of mainstream America, second is the AA universe, and third is the Asian universe. I’m well attuned to all three, and what I can say is that the true Asian universe is quite healthy and doesn’t have the ills of the AA universe. I would hate to be stuck in the AA universe. The creation of this AA universe is partly cause by the Amercian induced Kool-Aid that everyone must assimilate in order to live the American dream. In fact, quite the opposite is true. The biggest favor an Asian parent can do to their children is to teach them their native language and culture, and take them traveling, so that they don’t get trapped in this AA universe with all of its problems. What happens is that a ton of Asians raise their kids to be “bananas”, which causes identity crisis. The dating issues discussed here is just one manifestation of such identify crisis. An AA person who cannot relate to their own culture is on a small island by him or herself. On this island, there is self-hate, discrimination, Misogylinity, etc. Don’t go there. Be in the big universe instead. If you are well attuned to the Asian universe, you will actually be in a better position to relate to the American universe. You will respect yourself and understand what you deserve. When you respect yourself people in the American universe will respect you as well.

  329. J. Lamb -

    Thanks for your calm response.

    Again the parity issue. You wrote:

    “Seriously, if we place the dating concerns of some Asian men on par with the criminal justice concerns of Black men, knowing that the United States of America imprisons a larger percentage of its Black population today than South Africa did under apartheid, I will suggest that that parity is itself immoral.”

    Who’s placing them on an equal status? And why should it matter if one is a “greater” problem than the other? Who cares? Can’t we fight ALL racism at the same time? Why do we need to pick some and eliminate others?

    I could say the same thing:

    Being paid 70 cents to the dollar doesn’t seem like a life destroyer to me! In my opinion, it doesn’t sound that bad to me! So let’s not make it a priority in the feminist fight. After all, women in South Africa (or the middle east) get KILLED by misogynistic men. Why don’t American women count their blessings and be thankful they get 70 cents to the dollar, hmmmm? Why don’t women stop “whining” (using the word you used to describe Asian male complaints about dating) about that, so we can focus on issues of Asian male breadwinner poverty among lower class Asians. THAT’s a real issue because that’s life and death!

    I can make a similar argument to most issues that feminists “whine” about .

    Along the same lines, it’s my right and opinion not to care about black men being incarcerated at a disproportionate rate either right in the US right? After all, it’s not as bad as making black people sit in colored sections. Look at how good blacks have it today compared to your grandparents’ generation!

    So it’s also white men’s right to not care about getting rid of white privilege too right? Why should white men care about eliminating white privilege?

    Why don’t just have nobody help anyone else if it doesn’t hurt them directly? Or more importantly, benefit them directly to intervene.

    Those crazy white people who marched with blacks in the Civil Rights movement. What were they thinking? Dopes. They didn’t get anything out of the Civil Rights movement. In fact, they lost some of their relative privilege and conveniences when blacks became equal and moved into their schools, neighborhoods, restaurants, and took their seats on buses.

    So because you, a black man, think that Asian male dating issues aren’t worthy of focusing on, we should all hold hands and agree and now we can focus on the REAL important issues such as black male incarceration?

    Tell me why I should PERSONALLY care about black male incarceration first J. Lamb. Because honestly, it doesn’t affect my life one bit.

    P.S. Thanks for keeping your last posts civil, but I want to reiterate I really didn’t like your personal attacks on black women who were bitter because they were lonely, and on “lonely, angry Asian American male trolls in this thread [who couldn't] escort a twenty-something White girl home after cocktails and bad jokes on Saturday night” – your words.

    Why are so many black women lonely? Because of systemic prejudice that say they are “manly” and “angry,” making it relatively harder for them to find a spouse, and because systemic prejudice that puts a disproportionate number of single black men in jail.

    Why are Asian men bad with women, as you imply? Because systemic prejudice in society that tells western women that Asian men suck as dates, and this causes a further vicious cycle where Asian men lack confidence, which is generally the most important trait women look for in a mate. Also, it seems you place some value on a man being able to take a girl home from a bar. Is that a signifier of masculinity to you? What would Jenn say?

  330. J. Lamb wrote –

    “Here a post on misogyny within Asian America has precipitated another Asian male dating dialogue, where the aggrieved whine about their dating prospects and drown out those who oppose misogyny in the community. It’s ridiculous.”

    No concern that genuinely hurts many people is “ridiculous.” And “whining”? You are so patronizing at times.

    You also wrote:

    “There’s no solution to this so-called problem that doesn’t require Asian American women to curtail their freedom of association.”

    You are flat wrong. Read my last long-ass post. There are solutions without limiting Asian women in any way. In a nutshell, we can fix the Asian male emasculation issue by making ALL Asians more appealing, not just Asian women. And we can raise the value of Asian men without lowering the appeal of Asian women nor curtailing their dating choices in any way. If you read my posts, you will realize I even support Asian women with black men, because that is not a couple usually based on privilege and anti-Asian male prejudice. I also support making black males less threatening and more appealing as well…most non-black women will still not date a black man in this society, and I think that’s wrong, because we are all human, and I think all humans should be open to dating all other humans.

    You wrote:

    “What are people supposed to do? Watch Asian men hijack every feminist dialogue to remind us that people aren’t sexually interested in some of them? Who cares?”

    Asian female feminism and Asian male emasculation are two separate issues. Hijacking a thread is wrong, but in this case it wasn’t hijacked, because Jenn was making the argument that Asian men shouldn’t worry so much about dating, so I say the topic is fair game. Virtually every Asian guy on this thread disagreed.

    And you want to know who cares? I do. So does EVERY SINGLE Asian male I know, at least to a slight degree (and I know literally hundreds of Asian males personally). That makes a 100% care rate in my book.

    I could say…

    Who cares about black male incarceration? Hmmm? It doesn’t affect me, or other Asian males, nor does it affect white males and females, nor Asian women.

    According to you, I shouldn’t care about black issues, because it doesn’t affect me. So who cares?

    What say you?

  331. J. Lamb some things you write… make no sense.

    You wrote –

    “I’m persuaded that anti-Black woman and anti-Asian male stereotypes can have horrible effects on individual lives. I’m not persuaded that the possible unwanted effects these stereotypes may have on dating prospects is or should be anyone’s political concern.”

    Horrible effects on individual lives don’t warrant political action? What does then?

    Sitting in colored sections and the back of the bus and not being able to vote wasn’t even all that horrible for black people. They could still eat, and ride on the bus, and find jobs. So why did MLK Jr. make it such a huge political deal?

  332. Ah, regarding my last post. I see now that you are saying dating issues are a trivial issue, and only horrible issues warrant political action.

    That said, I still stand by the MLK Jr statement. Blacks in 1960 didn’t really have it “horrible” in absolute terms. They were actually pretty well integrated in society, just considered “inferior.” Yes, there were some hate-fueled murders, but it wasn’t like they were being killed on a mass scale or something. When does something become “horrible enough” for you to deserve political mobilization, J. Lamb?

    Jokes in the workplace putting down women certainly isn’t “horrible”… no blood is shed. Making 70 cents to the dollar isn’t “horrible.” Black men being jailed for unfairly long durations (usually for committing some sort of crime, legitimately making them criminals) isn’t HORRIBLE… after all, most did commit a crime and all of them are warm and fed. Black men being closely watched by cops: not horrible. Black men unfairly searched: not horrible, if they didn’t actually beat the black man. So many trivial black concerns.

    Asian sex trafficking, I think we can all agree that’s pretty horrible. Let’s only tackle the horrible stuff and ignore the rest as “whining” ok?

    Hmmm. But who decides what’s horrible? Obviously it’s not emotional pain. So you must define horrible as bloodshed or physical pain.

  333. Because most of the asian male mysogyny Jenn is talking about in this article is caused by the issue of asian male dating. So why wouldn’t it be discussed? – Van

    Van, I disagree. The Asian male misogyny Jenn writes about in the article above is caused by individual Asian male reactions to emasculation stereotypes, and the social climate influenced by those stereotypes. Plenty of Asian American men refrain from the misogyny Elliot Rodger embraced, no matter how unsuccessful their dating attempts. Misogyny is a choice, not the logical result of Asian male dating prospects.

    We must remember that guys like Elliot Rodger are the outlier, that most men do not respond to sexual stress with sexism and violence. Knowing this, the focus on Asian male dating concerns is completely misplaced, and operates as another example of forcing silence about feminist concerns onto everyone. The problem with Elliot Rodger that Jenn argues finds parallel in a minute subset of Asian males today, is a problem with misogyny, not a problem with finding a date.

  334. Who’s placing them on an equal status? And why should it matter if one is a “greater” problem than the other? Who cares? Can’t we fight ALL racism at the same time? Why do we need to pick some and eliminate others? … Tell me why I should PERSONALLY care about black male incarceration first J. Lamb. Because honestly, it doesn’t affect my life one bit.- Piggy Rabbit

    Piggy Rabbit, the quick answer here is that individuals should prioritize their activism, out of sheer practicality, and equalizing the moral importance of everyone’s identity gripes makes that ethically impossible. The long answer is that independent observers should be able to distinguish between injustices caused by public policy (state action), and injustices caused in the private sector by interpersonal differences.

    But let’s be clear – I’m not going to hijack this thread to convince you or anyone else to consider American mass incarceration important. The evidence is public and widely-known; if you want an argument on mass incarceration, go pick up Michelle Alexander’s The New Jim Crow. I’m comfortable with the fact that individuals have both the capacity and the right to judge for themselves what political issues they should consider worthy.

    And that’s the point: we all have the right as individuals to evaluate what we consider politically important. I’m not suggesting that mass incarceration or anything else is more important that Asian male dating problems. I’ve suggested that Asian male dating problems are not important. There’s a meaningful difference. I’ve said previously that fighting anti-Asian male emasculation stereotypes is important and just, but the focus on Asian male dating obscures discussions on misogyny. This isn’t difficult.

    Piggy, you’ve made a cause and effect mistake in your arguments against my position. We both believe that anti-Asian male emasculation stereotypes cause deleterious effects on Asian American men. Where we can both wish to see those stereotypes discredited in popular cultural portrayals to preserve, say, Asian American employment prospects, we differ in our conception of the possible impact emasculation stereotypes may have on individual Asian male dating opportunities. The emasculation stereotypes (cause) are the problem, not the dating troubles some Asian men endure (possible effect).

    My hope is that this conversation can return to the important work of parsing misogyny in ethnic communities. There’s room for an emasculation stereotype discussion in that conversation. But as soon as the “plight” of the Asian male dater is raised, you lose those of us who recognize that dating concerns are your problem as an individual, not the Asian American community’s, and certainly not mine.

    Like it or not Piggy Rabbit, you’re trying to elevate simple loneliness into a political crusade. Pathetic is one word for that, sad’s another. Regardless, your arguments to this effect do not persuade.

  335. Jenn,

    Where in that article does it say that? That article is about explaining how racial fetishes are racist, and not “beneficial”. It seems to me like you are projecting some stuff on to that article that really aren’t there.

    I wasn’t talking about that article in particular. But it isn’t “projecting” when it’s a consistent pattern over and over again: Asian women complain about racism and sexism, but often, Asian men aren’t even in the equation (in terms of simply being viewed as allies). I recently read a contemporary novel by an Asian American female author that has been celebrated as a critique of racism and sexism against Asian female professionals. In this exploration, there are no Asian males at all (except for her father and some super-dorky high school acquaintance whom her parents try to set her up with).

    Are you arguing that Asian American men do not have male privilege?

    Of course we do, but it’s tempered by our race. We have less privilege relative to White men than Asian women do relative to White women.

    Perhaps I misunderstand how these apps work, but I thought that the matching was based on an algorithm that does matching for people, and are biased towards matching two people based on same-race.

    These apps don’t ask for race.

    Also, this is anecdotal. You have no idea what the experiences of a non-Asian person on your dating app, with your profile, would be like.

    Repeated survey after survey (OKCupid, Are You Interested, Match) show that White men get the most favorable responses from women.

    One of the problems, however, is the assertion made by you here, and others, that Asian male emasculation should be the foremost issue for our community.

    Never once did I say that this is the foremost issue for our community. I’ve always said that Asian men’s dating success is simply one of the metrics that we should use to measure the progress of the greater Asian American community.

  336. J. Lamb,

    I don’t find it reasonable to consider the dating concerns of Asian American men equal to the police brutality concerns of African American men.

    Who said that they were, or had to be, equal? But we are in an Asian American space here.

    Furthermore, what about the fact that the problems of African American men don’t compare to the ones faced by Native American men? Or men in Sierra Leone? Does that invalidate your concerns?

  337. Furthermore, what about the fact that the problems of African American men don’t compare to the ones faced by Native American men? Or men in Sierra Leone? Does that invalidate your concerns? – Pozhal

    No.

  338. @Yun

    Here’s why people suspect Jenn is anti-Asian male in case you missed it. BTW, it has nothing to do with her dating you. Stop making it all about you, man!

    It’s the absence of articles on the REAL
    1. Numerous white guys murdering Asian females
    2. sexpat disease in Asia disguised as esl “teachers”
    3. creepywhite guys tumblr – hacked, courtesy of “white rugged heroes”
    4. far higher divorce rates amongst af/wm than af/am pairs
    5. far higher std rates in af than am
    6. mgtow/mra groups who hate white women in general but seek “submissive and know her place” Asian females . They’re like little elliot rodgers in the making.
    7. usa military rapes in Japan, South Korea, and Philipines.

    So you think I hate Asian men is because I refuse to define Asian American feminism in the by standards that you have set. I don’t agree with your worldview, therefore I hate you (for your race and gender?). That’s illogical.

    Of course we do, but it’s tempered by our race. We have less privilege relative to White men than Asian women do relative to White women.

    That’s not backed up by data at all. Through most parameters, economic and political disparities are wider for AAPI women vs White women than for AAPI men vs White men.

    These apps don’t ask for race.

    Then how are you being discriminated against based on your race?

  339. “Van, I disagree. The Asian male misogyny Jenn writes about in the article above is caused by individual Asian male reactions to emasculation stereotypes, and the social climate influenced by those stereotypes. Plenty of Asian American men refrain from the misogyny Elliot Rodger embraced, no matter how unsuccessful their dating attempts. Misogyny is a choice, not the logical result of Asian male dating prospects.

    We must remember that guys like Elliot Rodger are the outlier, that most men do not respond to sexual stress with sexism and violence. Knowing this, the focus on Asian male dating concerns is completely misplaced, and operates as another example of forcing silence about feminist concerns onto everyone. The problem with Elliot Rodger that Jenn argues finds parallel in a minute subset of Asian males today, is a problem with misogyny, not a problem with finding a date.”

    So you’re saying since not all Asian males are misogynistic, then it can’t possibly be a cause behind Asian males and misogyny? Sorry, that makes no sense at all. Why do you think Asian males are calling Asian females sellouts then? Because these Asian males are living happy, fulfilling sex lives? No. It’s cause they are bitter. You keep arguing that it’s just misogyny, but are failing to see what causes misogyny. Misogyny doesn’t stand alone as much as you’d like it to. Let me compare this to another situation. There are some boys who grow up in households where they are beaten and they witness their father hit their mother. Some boys will grow up and do the same to their wives and children while others will not. Just because some will not doesn’t mean that growing up in a household where one experiences that kind of abuse does not affect you.

    Honestly, you’re in a bit of a conundrum. You say you don’t care about AA male dating, but you do care about misogyny against AA females. However, you can’t solve one without the other. You seem to be deluding yourself into thinking you can. I’m telling you though, if the AA male dating problem doesn’t get better, the misogyny towards AA females likely won’t either. I mean, honestly, how are you going to combat misogyny? You are really buying into Jenn’s redefining masculinity solution? You really think that’s gonna make Asian guys less bitter and stop their misogyny? Come on now. If not, then how do you think it’ll be solved? By just telling these Asian guys to stop being misogynistic? Really, how are you looking to fight it?

  340. Btw, J. Lamb, I love how you use black male police brutality as an example to downplay the issue of AA male dating. The funny thing is, if you were to survey 100 males and ask them, “Would you rather have a life where you have a higher chance of getting beat up, but have lots of sex? Or would you rather have a life where there’s a higher chance of you being a virgin your entire life, but not much of a chance of getting beat up? Which one would you choose?” I’m willing to bet that the majority of males would choose the first one (even black males).

  341. Jenn,

    That’s not backed up by data at all. Through most parameters, economic and political disparities are wider for AAPI women vs White women than for AAPI men vs White men.

    What about social disparities? They are very important as well.

    Here’s a presentation by an Asian American man who wanted to go into broadcasting, but was told that unlike Asian women, “Americans” didn’t trust Asian men: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ2kHnNJVDc

    Local broadcast news may not seem like a big deal, but it is one of the few media venues where Asians are somewhat common. Not only that, but they are presented as American as can be. As such, it’s a decent proxy for level of acceptance among “Americans.” And in this regard, there is a severe imbalance. A 2002 USC studied showed that the Asian woman:Asian man ratio was 80:20.

    Then how are you being discriminated against based on your race?

    I am disproportionately liked by Asian girls, which indicates to me that I am probably being viewed first as “Asian.” Certain groups, such as Asian girls, are more likely to view that as less of a negative (or less of a scary unknown) than other groups.

    In a more even world, if I match 50% with Asian American girls, I should probably match along the same lines with other racial groups of girls. We are, after all, all American-raised with somewhat similar standards of what makes a guy attractive. But that doesn’t happen. Race still matters, and in my case, it’s probably limiting my options relative to a White guy with all things being equal.

    When you add in the supporting studies from various dating sites as well as widespread anecdotal accounts, it’s hard to deny what’s going on.

  342. Btw, J. Lamb, I love how you use black male police brutality as an example to downplay the issue of AA male dating. – Van

    Van, you can’t downplay a non-issue. I’ve only illustrated how ridiculous the dating concerns of some Asian American men appear when cast as a political gripe, like gender pay inequities.

    If not, then how do you think it’ll be solved? By just telling these Asian guys to stop being misogynistic? Really, how are you looking to fight it? – Van

    I think conversations like the one Jenn sparked are useful because they outline how unchecked misogyny can corrode political unity in ethnic communities. Defining masculinity in life-affirming ways is an old and frankly conservative tactic to fight misogyny, one I do not oppose when directed at men of color.

    Frankly, I wish more people directly confronted Elliot Rodger about the abject stupid in his dating ideas. He was a guy who felt he “deserved” the perfect women, a blonde, blue-eyed White woman in his estimation. That’s grotesque, and when the real world didn’t provide his desires like manna from heaven, Rodger resorted to Second Amendment solutions.

    When people of color recognize similar thinking in their communities, they should confront the perpetrators directly, and dismantle their illogical arguments. That’s exactly what I’m doing now. The foolish elevation of some Asian American men’s dating troubles into some major-league political concern encourages the kind of corrosive misogyny that plagued Elliot Rodger.

    I’m certain that none of the Asian men in this discussion are as far gone as Rodger apparently was; none of you are going to commit similar acts of violence because of low responses to your OKCupid profiles.

    But direct confrontation is a good thing. You want to get rid of misogyny, Van? Look the misogynists in the eye whenever possible and tell them directly how stupid and pathetic and foolish and petty their opinions really are. I’m all in favor of advocating against emasculation stereotypes. But I could give a damn how any of you fare in the dating market. Forgive me for identifying more pressing concerns.

  343. To all,

    This has been a great discussion, and I’m glad that Jenn and I seemed to see common ground on many areas. I also appreciated Piggy Rabbit’s personal accounts, though I think his situation is more common among older generations.

    But I’ve spent a lot of time here this past week, and I think I’ve said all that can be said without repeating myself. So I will leave with just a summary of all of my posts.

    (1) Entitled sexual misogyny is a serious problem, and it has the potential to become virulent in Asian American communities because of the long history of Asian male emasculation.

    (2) There are steps that Asian guys can take to fight this problem, and we should take the lead because misogyny is an attitude that resides within in, regardless of greater outside forces.

    (3) However, there are also unique actions that Asian women can take in order to help us.

    (4) Asian male confidence is an important, but not only, metric of Asian American progress.

    (5) Organic and gradual change is key.

    Later!

  344. J. Lamb, you say it’s a non-issue, but like I said, most black men would still not want to trade places with a virgin. Funny isn’t it?

    Your solution is to tell misogynists that they’re stupid? Really? And how’s that working out for you? Have you ever had one misogynist react in this way to your confrontation: “Hey, you know what? You’re right. My views are stupid. You’ve shown me the error of my ways. I’m gonna stop calling Asian women sellouts now.” Of course not. You’d fair no better telling a member of the KKK that his racist views are stupid.

    One of my favorite movies of all time is “American History X.” In it, one of my favorite actors (Edward Norton) plays a white supremacist who ends up in jail for murdering a black man. In jail, he meets a black man who slowly changes his views on race. He does it not by calling Edward Norton’s character stupid. But by changing his perception of race through actions. Edward Norton’s character realizes that there are black men who can be good people while there were white men in the prison who were hypocritical a-holes. Rarely are you going to change a person’s views through belittling them. You’d stand a much better chance of changing someone through actions.

  345. Jenn,

    I’m done here. I should have left months ago.

    You can keep writing dissertations to deny your obvious anti-Asian male bias or paint me as trying to “define your world-view” when I’m simply calling the facts out.

    It’s obvious that you’re avoiding the issues entirely and trying to paint those of us with legitimate points as “crazy”.

  346. Jenkin said: “Asian men focus their entire political identity on interpersonal interactions only they really care about. It’s pathetic, really.
    In an era where some men of color face unwarranted physical searches and police detainment for the crime of being Black in public, where immigration officials scour southwestern deserts for undocumented immigrants to detain without speedy trials who cross deserts under inhumane conditions, where women still make seventy cents for every dollar generated by men, some Asian men want the bulk of Asian American political activism to focus on their dating success rates……..”, etc.

    Several points:

    Evolution-wise, the ability to mate and produce off-spring thereby furthering an organism’s genes is probably the paramount concern to any species, sub-species or tribe. It is the end goal of power, resources, society and life. It is the underlying motivation for many political and social motivations, behind Jenn’s, Jenkins, Piggy’s and Van’s. To discount this as something of no concern, is REALLY naïve, dishonest if not outright hypocritical.

    To the Asian American males here, sadly, you will NOT find salvation within this forum. It’s very clear both from Jenkin’s and Jenn’s comments that any solution to your problems may be perceived as conflicting with their goals. And the reason Jenkin and Jen hold the views they do is because of the exact same reasons YOU do, they are trying to create a societal framework that maximizes their reproductive fitness, whether they realize it or not. You are deluded if you think otherwise.

    From by observations, many Asian American males seems to be mired in a left-wing-liberal-progressive-feminist-equality ideology and framework which would be ultimately be their tribal suicide, as that entire social framework is geared against you and your strengths. The more you look for answers from the left, the more empty rhetoric you will receive back. With that said, pay attention to what Jenkins says. He is being honest to himself.

  347. Btw, J. Lamb, I love how you use black male police brutality as an example to downplay the issue of AA male dating. The funny thing is, if you were to survey 100 males and ask them, “Would you rather have a life where you have a higher chance of getting beat up, but have lots of sex? Or would you rather have a life where there’s a higher chance of you being a virgin your entire life, but not much of a chance of getting beat up? Which one would you choose?” I’m willing to bet that the majority of males would choose the first one (even black males). – Van

    J. Lamb, you say it’s a non-issue, but like I said, most black men would still not want to trade places with a virgin. Funny isn’t it? – Van

    Van, you can’t justify police brutality against Black men with hypersexual Black male stereotypes. That’s a new level of wrong, even for this thread.

    The assumption that Black men (or any male group outside of Asian American men) are more likely to achieve mating success is bizarre. Your thought experiment requires men to envision sexual intercourse as more important than equal justice under the law. I suggest that you may wish to re-evaluate your support for anti-Black male sexual stereotypes if you truly believe this gutter trash you spout.

    Look, I don’t speak for all Black men. I have no idea what individual Black men desire outside of myself. But I pay taxes and respect the law. I expect the municipal police departments my tax dollars fund to treat me like a law-abiding citizen, someone who has not earned anyone’s suspicion, no matter my skin’s darkness. Van, your assumption that people like me might ignore unjust police suspicion for the supposed bounty of increased sexual intercourse is disgusting, period.

    Word to the wise: the Asian American men in this thread who find trouble in the dating market should stop projecting this concern on all men. Many men of color are simply not that anxious about where our next orgasm is coming from. Letting go of that insecurity would go a long way toward dismantling the misogyny that plagues ethnic communities.

  348. You are censoring your comments? While my post was very likely, contrary to your goals, I said nothing in my last post that was inappropriate. If you are confident of your arguments, you should be able to cut it to shreds.

    The fact that you a suppressing opposing ideas shows that the ideas being expressed here are manicured in a way as to produce sympathy towards your side.

    It is propaganda.

  349. Wow, talk about a strawman. Nowhere in my post did I justify police brutality. I suggest you stop accusing me of things I did not state in order to make your point seem stronger. My point is, if AA male dating is such a non-issue like you said, why would the majority of men who face bigger problems not want to trade places with said AA male who doesn’t have any issues. The answer is obvious. Maybe it’s not as much of a non-issue as you’re making it out to be.

    “The assumption that Black men (or any male group outside of Asian American men) are more likely to achieve mating success is bizarre. ”

    Uh, that’s not bizarre. That’s called real life. If you think everything is equal in mating, then I want what you’re smoking.

    “Van, your assumption that people like me might ignore unjust police suspicion for the supposed bounty of increased sexual intercourse is disgusting, period.”

    Another strawman. I never said any black people would ignore unjust police suspicion for more sex. I’m saying most black males would not trade places with an AA male virgin, even though according to you, this AA male virgin’s problem is a non-issue.

    “Many men of color are simply not that anxious about where our next orgasm is coming from. ”

    No sh*t. That’s my whole point to begin with. It’s only a non-issue to you because it doesn’t affect you.

  350. J. Lamb so it’s okay

    And obviously you must disagree about the “individuals” who are being targeted because of skin color. So you disagree with ABC wasting resources politicizing this lesser important non-horrible issue:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAkDHuimJRc

    Thanks to you J. Lamb, honestly, I am not persuaded I need to spend any thought or energy fighting gender pay disparity or black male incarceration. It’s a problem of those individuals affected. In your words:

    “…I could give a damn how any of you” black men are treated by the police. “Forgive me for identifying more pressing concerns.”

    “…I could give a damn how any of you” women are paid less at the workplace. “Forgive me for identifying more pressing concerns.”

    Like, you, I can say –
    “Everyone’s concerns aren’t that deep. If that makes me insensitive, cool. I can be insensitive and realistic at the same time.”

    I’m not “persuaded,” in your words why men, should care about male privilege that doesn’t end in bloodshed or some other “obviously” horrible consequence. How does Asian male privilege hurt me? It doesn’t.

    Thanks for opening my eyes and other Asian guy’s eyes J. Lamb. Obviously you and people like you have no interest in addressing the concerns voiced by practically every single Asian guy in Western society, regardless of how “well” they do in the dating marketplace. (I don’t want to make this a numbers game, but since you keep seemingly accuse this of being a problem among bitter Asian “losers” with women, I do have plenty of dating and sexual experience despite all the obstacles I faced, yes a few of them with white women, even a couple blondes — not that that SHOULD be really any important since we are all just humans — but I haven’t done that badly PERSONALLY, but I STILL feel strongly than Asian emasculation is a huge deal. I especially feel for any of my Asian brothers who are struggling more than myself and perhaps never even had a girlfriend, because my success was only due to me making a MASSIVE personal push and TONS of rejection, much of it public and utterly humiliating, to the point of tears.

    I always says, only respect the people who respect you.

    Only help people who are willing to help you.

    I am not “persuaded” to help black men like you in any way. You will probably respond you don’t care if any Asian men help you at all, right? You don’t need the help of Asian men, whom are weak politically, right?

    You’re too much J. Lamb.

  351. I like this quote:

    “No sh*t. That’s my whole point to begin with. It’s only a non-issue to you because it doesn’t affect you.”

    Van, you make sense brother.

    My whole philosophy is that you shouldn’t just stand around and let people around you be in emotional and physical pain, if you can step in and help in some way.

    NOT because you care PERSONALLY, or it benefits you PERSONALLY, but because it is the RIGHT thing to do.

    That is justice.

    We shouldn’t be as self-serving as J. Lamb appears to be. He only wants to address the issues that personally touch his life.