Because nothing says love like racial fetishism.
Earlier this week, a Huffington Post blogger Vivienne Chen wrote an article — So, He Likes You Because You’re Asian — which quickly made the rounds around Facebook. The basic thesis of the article is that there’s nothing particularly racist about a non-Asian man who exclusively dates Asian women. It’s not real racism, asserts Chen, but the kind of silly mundanity more deserving of our bemusement than our wrath. Further, thinks Chen, it’s us Asian women who stand to lose by calling this behaviour out as racist.
And, boy. Never has an article made me want to gnash my teeth and rip out my hair more. Writes Chen:
The problem I see is that this constant espousal of the stereotype of men who like Asian women oversimplifies complicated race, gender and sexual politics, and actually damages the dating prospects of Asian females and non-Asian males alike.
By promoting the “creepy [white] man with Asian fetish” stereotype in public discourse, we Asian women are shooting ourselves in the foot. We subtly reinforce that the predominant narrative of interracial dating between non-Asian men and Asian women is one of patriarchal, racist power structures, when we know that is not always the case. There is a world of difference between the old, ignorant fetishist and the average guy I’ve met who dates Asian women. In the areas of California where I grew up, where Asians range from 20 to 50% of the student population, a college-age male would have to make an active effort to exclude Asian females from their dating pool. And that, my friends, would be pretty racist.
But by constantly projecting this idea that men who specifically like Asian women are creepers, we risk making otherwise decent, respectable guys avoid dating Asian girls for fear of being labeled a creeper – until we have nothing but creepers left.
Now, I admit it — it’s been about 13 years since I’ve gone doggy-paddling around in the dating pool. But is this really a concern for all the single Asian ladies out there? Moreover, is this really a thought that crosses a decent gentleman’s mind while he debates asking the cute girl out?
"Man, I totally dig Jodie. But, I can't ask her out for coffee because if I do, she'll think I've internalized Orientalist and misogynistic stereotypes of Asian women as part of a long-standing fetish I have for the Eastern arts and culture, and that my interest in her is part of an elaborate ploy to engage in kinky recreations of Western colonialism of the Asian continent and its people using my recently purchased "Naughty Geisha" Halloween costume and discount foot-binding kit. Gosh, it's hard out here for a White guy."
I guess you learn something new about the male mentality every day.
Chen paints an elaborate portrait of the meager dating options for single Asian women today (one that certainly makes me relieved that this isn’t something I have to worry about). She asserts that there are two — and apparently only two — different kinds of non-Asian guys available for Asian women to date: 1) White guys who exclusively date Asian girls and who are fetishistic assholes, and 2) White guys who exclusively date Asian girls… but who are also “nice guys”. Or:
"Yeah, I only date Asian girls."
Versus:
"Yeah, I only date Asian girls. But -- I also like puppies!"
I admit, I was up until this point, completely unaware that the past few years’ Recession had also hit the dating economy so hard.
Apparently, we Asian American women have so saturated the dating market that we simply can’t afford to chase away the opportunity to date the “nice” Asiaphile, lest we while away the rest of our days as elderly — if morally superior — spinsters. These are good men, argues Chen, who just happen to be attracted to Asian women (and who just happen to have a huge collection of samurai swords, who just happen to have backpacked through Asia after college, who just happens to speak Mandarin, Japanese, and a little bit of pidgin Vietnamese, who just happens to have watched all the latest anime series, and who just happens to know where all the good bimbimbap restaurants in K-town are). We can’t blame the guy who just happens to fetishize the East, right?
... I mean, maybe he's only got Stage I Yellow Fever...?
After all, argues Chen, sexuality is all about objectification, isn’t it?
But how do we as Asian women deal with an overall decent, respectable guy who doesn’t just like Asians, but likes us because we’re Asian? Is it really a dealbreaker? This gets even more complicated. A thoughtful (Asian) female friend of mine points to a quote from Stephen Elliott of The Rumpus.net:
To be desired is to be fetishized… this idea that I want someone to desire me but not objectify me with their desires is absurd. It’s like saying I only want to date someone who is not attracted to people that look like me. Here’s the thing, you already are a fetish. You are your lover’s kink, exist within their circle of desire, starting with gender, and getting more specific from there.” (emphasis added)
“In fact,” he says, “there’s no bad reason to love a person. A person is not less enlightened if they’re only attracted to their own gender, or Asian women, or skinny people, or latex, or feet. You can objectify someone without treating them like an object.”
Elliott points out that the complexities of desire, objectification and fetishization affect all of us, regardless of race, gender or sexuality.
I agree that there’s a certain amount of objectification that comes with sexual desire. Peruse any local “Love Boutique”, and you’ll find ample examples of male and female (and trans) bodies being reduced to mere objects of sexual pleasure. In particular, you’ll find sexist and racial stereotypes given lewd form — fist-sized Black dildos juxtaposed next to decapitated rubber latex female torsos juxtaposed next to DVDs scrawled with images of barely legal Asian schoolgirls screaming “Fucky, sucky, long time” in jagged ChinkyYellowface font.
That doesn’t make it okay.
In fact, there are reams of writing from women, LGBT, and ethnic studies majors who have argued about the damning consequences of pornographic objectification of the human form, be it through the lens of race or gender. Objectification is a fact of human sexuality, but that doesn’t automatically give it a pass as politically acceptable.
And for the many people who lauded Chen’s article because (apparently) you can use it to rationalize anyone’s sexual fetishes, including (apparently) heterosexuality; I think there’s a big difference between having a particular sexual preference (re: hetero- vs homo-sexuality) hard-wired into your brain v.s. having a fetish for a woman of a particular race. Specifically, there’s a difference when viewed in light of the many damaging hypersexualized stereotypes that affect Asian/Asian American women in particular.
Unless someone's going to show me the scientific data that men are born with an Asian schoolgirl fetish.
- Dehumanization is still dehumanization, whether for the purposes of sex or otherwise. It doesn’t matter why you’re objectifying me; if you’re objectifying me because of my race, you are still viewing me as less than human.
And, I'm nobody's Asian fembot.
I don’t know how more plainly I can put this: the simple act of objectifying a person based on their race is, in and of itself, racist. Chen jokes:
[M]ore often than not, I find the advances of fetishists to be less infuriating and more amusing — because they are just so darn bad at seduction. Their attempts to woo me with their poorly pronounced “ni haos” and “konichiwas” are on par with little old ladies who exclaim “but you speak English so well!” to classmates who innocently ask me to translate a “Chinese” tattoo. Ignorant? Yes, but hardly worth griping over.
But, whether you want to subjugate Asian women for your latest bedroom kink, or whether you merely want to ask us to translate your Chinese tattoo, you are still seeing Asian women as mere representatives of a racial whole. Manifestations of racism, no matter how mundane they might appear to be, are still based on racism. It’s still a person who isn’t seeing past my race. It’ still someone treating me differently based solely on the colour of my skin. And, that’s racist.
Yet, Chen argues, we Asian women should be more tolerant and forgiving of the Asiaphile because we are guilty of limiting our own dating choices; thus, to condemn the Asiaphile would be hypocritical.
We Asian girls who complain about Yellow Fever know for a fact that not every guy who dates Asian girls is a creeper — as many of us tend to exclusively date non-Asian men ourselves. [Marie Claire's Ji Hyun Lee] admits this in passing, but waves it away with the age-old excuse: “Asian guys rarely hit on me, perhaps because many aren’t raised to be assertive with women.” Bullshit. Let’s be honest: We have grown up in a Western culture, with Western standards of beauty and Western ideals of romance — which is why we value “assertiveness” at the bar in the first place. We prefer Western men because we grew up in a culture that prefers Western men.
Chen is right — it would be hypocritical to condemn Asiaphiles while exclusively dating White men. Which doesn’t mean that Asiaphiles aren’t racist; it means maybe we should interrogate how racist it is when Asian women exclusively date White men, or exclusively date Asian men, or any other permutation of limiting one’s mating choices based on racial qualifiers.
Let me put it bluntly: a girl (Asian or otherwise) who only dates guys (White or otherwise) of a particular race because of their membership in that race is racist. And if you want proof, look no further than the casual racism of Chen’s article, which laughs about (rather than challenges) Asian notions of “light makes right”.
Those of us who come from more traditional Asian families know our parents would faint if we brought home an African American boyfriend; I’ve seen my friend’s mother scream at her for having a Berkeley-educated Brazilian beau. Asian cultures can be remarkably xenophobic, and white people are sometimes given a “light-skinned pass.” Long before the White Man set foot in China, having light skin was a sign of wealth and status, as it meant you didn’t spend long hours toiling in the sun. Remember, Asian cultures are the ones that mass market skin-lightening creams, where people often get eyelid surgery to make their eyes bigger, i.e. less Asian.
In short, it’s perfectly acceptable to be an Asian girl who fetishizes White guys, because Asian people are just oh-so-awesomely racist like that! Or, as Chen pithily puts it:
My friends and I often joke about this study: White guy says, “I love Asian women, you’re so exotic and feminine!” Asian girl says, “Well, at least you’re not black.”
Hilarious.
'Cuz what self-respecting Asian girl would demean herself with a guy who looks like this, right? I mean, he's just so... Black.
(Aside: Shemar Moore is insanely, inhumanely good-looking. I mean it, he is just impossibly handsome. It’s not fair to us mere mortals.)
Guess what, Ms. Chen? We all grew up in a Westernized Asian American culture that idealized Eurocentric ideals of beauty. We also all grew up with brains that are perfectly capable of challenging social programming to break out of racist stereotypes of beauty, sexuality and dating. Many Asian cultures suffer historically from deeply ingrained colourstruck programming that would discard or ostracize African American or Latino dating choices, while prizing White or Asian mates. But we’re also supposed to be an enlightened generation of people who can move past their pre-programming and accept people for who they are rather than the colour of their skin.
Which leaves me with the crux of why Chen’s article so offended me.
Let me be clear: I am, in no way, arguing against interracial relationships. I am not denigrating Asian American women who have dated, and/or who are currently dating, non-Asian men. I make a very big distinction between Asian American women who date non-Asian men, and Asian American women who exclusively date non-Asian (or Asian) men. In short, I have a problem with the deliberate act of excluding one’s dating choices based on race.
I’ve been blogging as an Asian American female and feminist for nearly a decade. Back in the day, the issue of Asian female outmarriage was a seething undercurrent of the Asian American blogosphere (not that it doesn’t remain a hot-button issue these days, but nothing like 8-10 years ago). During this time, Asian women at-large were being typecast from within the community as being racist sellouts based primarily on the phenomenon of Asian American outmarriage. We were treated, as a whole, as folks who had internalized anti-Asian stereotypes of Asian masculinity, and this served as a real obstacle for female political participation in the online Asian American community. Gigabytes of digital type were dedicated to arguing that (all) Asian American women suffer internalized self-hate leading them to date White men, and this was why Asian American men should be suspicious of any Asian American woman’s involvement in APA political activism and community organizing. Unlike Asian American men, politically engaged Asian American women had to defend our “down-ness” with the Asian American cause in reference to the race of our significant others.
You'd be pissed too if the state of your love life was more important to some members of the Asian American community than what you had to say.
Because I am an Asian American woman in a stable relationship with an African-American man, I’ve been the target of the worst sexism that the Asian American community has to offer. I’ve been called a sellout, a hypocrite, and worse because the man I fell in love with is Black. I am part of the Asian female outmarriage statistic, and yet I still have the nerve to be involved in uplifting the Asian American community.
Here’s the difference, and it’s a critical one. I never exclusively limited my dating choices based on race. In the very brief period between when I was both post-pubescent and single (and I do mean brief — we’re talking 3, maybe 4, years?), I was attracted to men of all shapes and sizes, and all colours and creeds. As far as I’m concerned, limiting oneself to dating only a certain physical type — racial or otherwise — is as superficial as it is racist, and is almost a guarantee to miss out on the potential love of your life.
In short, Asian women who conscientiously choose to exclusively date White men are just as racist as the Asiaphiles they defend. And, as someone who has spent years defending non-racist Asian women and our right to be in meaningful interracial relationships (and to do so without having our Asian-ness questioned), I’m galled and disappointed by this blatant example of an Asian woman getting it so very racist and so very wrong. Asian American women shouldn’t have our political activism questioned based on who we date; but nor should we so brazenly embrace racism, and being racially subjugated, in our own lives.
And what pisses me off the most, Ms. Chen? In the eyes of the small subset of the Asian American male population who would rather marginalize all Asian American female voices than to listen to us — there’s no difference between you and me.
In the end, Chen’s article isn’t about arguing that Asiaphilia isn’t racist. It’s about Chen suggesting that Asiaphilia is an acceptable form of racism because it’s more convenient for her personal life to do so. Chen isn’t interested in combatting racism; she’s interested in protecting her dating options. She wants to preserve her right to be racially objectified and to call it love. She wants to leverage her race to her own romantic advantage, and be desired with a clear conscience.
Which, in the end, is nothing more than defending your right to be in this relationship:
"My boyfriend only dates Asian girls. But it's not racist because I'm his SPECIAL Asian girl."
If that’s what floats Ms. Chen’s boat, than so be it. But, please don’t make all of us Asian American women look like racist asshats while you’re rationalizing the sociopolitical consequences of your own poor love-life choices. Neither does every person in an interracial relationship have a racial fetish, nor is every Asian American woman who dates interracially tolerant of Asiaphilia. So, please stop making it seem like the case.
In closing, let me make a humble suggestion: So, he likes you because you’re Asian? Then, he doesn’t love you. Really. Maybe you should try dating until you can find someone who likes you, and who doesn’t give a fuck what you look like.
And that might even mean giving up your own racial fetishes, too.
Good blog post, Jenn. I agree with everything you said.
I remember 8-10 years ago, and yes, it was much more contentious back then. I think what happened was that people eventually realized that they couldn’t change other peoples’ perspectives by arguing. It’s similar with Ms. Chen. No matter what you tell her, eventually she’s going to find a White man whose fetishes she can overlook. And then everyone will be happy. And once she’s settled down, another Asian female blogger with a White fetish will step in and take her place. And then there will still be people like you and me on the side, watching, knowing that that just seems to be the way it is.
“eventually she’s going to find a White man whose fetishes she can overlook. And then everyone will be happy. And once she’s settled down, another Asian female blogger with a White fetish will step in and take her place. And then there will still be people like you and me on the side, watching, knowing that that just seems to be the way it is.”
And that’s what frustrates me. The whole thing is just so insidiously racist and anti-feminist. And it plays exactly into the kind of crap that I was targeted with 8-10 years ago. ‘Cuz the sexists in our community think ALL Asian American women think like Chen. It’s fuel for the misogyny.
Or, this will prompt the counterargument written by the AF blogger: “I’m an Asian girl who exclusively dates Asian guys” which gets lauded as a revolutionary act by these same sexist assholes.
Which in the end leaves Asian women and our activism being qualified based on the race of the guy we’re dating, rather than our own intellectual contributions.
I’m an Asian guy raised in the US for 19 yrs (I’m 27) and this article is pretty refreshing. I’m still very much attracted to Asian women, but my ratio for approaching them vs approaching non-Asians stand at 1 to 10. Simply b/c I’ve discovered non-Asian women are much more likely to treat me as an individual instead of boxing me in as another “Asian guy”. That’s another place where the other author has it wrong: Asian guys are quite assertive, we just like to talk to girls who treat us better. And for me, I feel the social experience of Asian men and women are so different in the US that we might as be of completely different minorities. And sometimes I feel ready to accept that and say: that’s it, if that’s they way Asian women wanted, I can live with never talking to another Asian female outside of my mom and relatives. But not quite yet…
In terms of stereotypes, Asian men are rising to positions of power in movies and TV as directors and producers. The big example is Justin Lin, you’ll notice that he has done all he can to rehabilitate Asian masculinity in some of his movies. With the Asian film market primed to explode to the tune of 300,000,000 audiences in China alone, hollywood would do well to kowtow to global tastes and put Asian men front and center.
Oh, and I’m a director with a very ambitious idea with huge market appeal. Asian women might hold the spotlight more as actresses for now, but the real power lies in the writers and directors.
I’m sorry, but how is your thesis different from the final thesis in Chen’s article, which is:
“So, with that in mind, perhaps the best question we as Asian women should be asking ourselves is this: Does he treat me like an individual? And perhaps the dealbreaker is then not what race of girlfriends he has or how often he frequents the bubble tea shop, but rather he who assumes anything about our personality based on our physical attributes, or disregards our autonomy because of our anatomy.”
She isn’t arguing that ALL Asiaphilia is okay, but that questions of attraction and desire are more complex than simply: if you’re attracted to X race, you’re a creeper. She’s arguing for viewing any individual in a relationship, be it an Asian female or a white male, as an autonomous human being who should be valued as an individual first regardless of race. The “dealbreaker” is not just that this person is interested in a certain culture, but when this interest delves into the realm of dangerous power relations, assumptions, and (yes) racism because that person views the ‘object of his desire’ as simply an object.
@Joyce:
Because that thesis paragraph is completely disconnected from the rest of the article, which argues that there are acceptable forms of racial objectification.
I argue that it’s impossible to like someone BECAUSE of their race, and still see them as an individual. You are viewing someone differently because of their race — how can you do that and claim to see someone as an individual? If you love someone for who they are, than their membership in one race vs. another shouldn’t matter.
Jenn: I like people BECAUSE of their gender. So does every other non-bisexual in the world. Does that preclude me from viewing them as individuals?
@Jake:
See this paragraph –
“And for the many people who lauded Chen’s article because (apparently) you can use it to rationalize anyone’s sexual fetishes, including (apparently) heterosexuality; I think there’s a big difference between having a particular sexual preference (re: hetero- vs homo-sexuality) hard-wired into your brain v.s. having a fetish for a woman of a particular race. Specifically, there’s a difference when viewed in light of the many damaging hypersexualized stereotypes that affect Asian/Asian American women in particular.”
The general consensus is that hetero- vs. homo (vs. bisexuality) is a hard-wired thing that one is born with. Is it difficult for men to treat women without objectification or vice versa as heterosexual creatures? Yes — this is the basis of the entire pornography industry. This is also why sexism and misogyny exists. It’s not impossible for people to view targets of sexual desire as individuals, but it’s something that every adult struggles with (even bisexual people!).
But you’re also conflating hard-wired sexual attraction to a particular gender that one is born with versus rationalizing a fetish — particularly one based on race — that one is not born with. It’s simply not the same thing to say “I’m attracted to women (or men) because of their gender” v.s. “I’m attracted to Asian women because of their race”. Race and gender are not the same.
And finally, let’s not play Oppression Olympics here. This is about the racial and sexual politics (and associated stereotypes and oppression) faced by Asian women within and outside of our community. I’m totally disgusted by the attempts being made by supporters of this article to co-opt this debate and make it about LGBTQ issues. This is about sexism faced by Asian women; how about we actually keep the focus on us and our narrative?
God forbid we actually spend some time talking about the feminism of Asian American women in its own right, without having to link it to other narratives in order to make it relevant.
I agree that we shouldn’t make this debate about lgbtq issues, but for your own growth, you should reconsider the notion that “hetero- vs. homo (vs. bisexuality) is a hard-wired thing that one is born with.” It’s not that clear-cut or generalizable.
Otherwise, great job unpacking a well-intentioned yet warped argument by Vivienne.
Your comment policy sets out very clear, appropriate guidelines as to avoiding ad hominem and remaining respectful.
Yet this piece contains such sentences as:
“If that’s what floats Ms. Chen’s boat, than so be it. But, please don’t make all of us Asian American women look like racist asshats while you’re rationalizing the sociopolitical consequences of your own poor love-life choices.”
Could you please clarify this inconsistency?
Hey, I’m an African-American male in the midwest with a predominantly Asian-American friendgroup, partly a byproduct of who I met first in college and my major.
To address your “Man, I really dig Jodie,” quote, the exact same notions have stopped me from approaching girls in the past, but because of the surrounding community, not the individual girl. I already had an unfounded, undeserved reputation as an Asian-girl chasing womanizer because of my visibility within the community, the gender and racial makeup of my close friends (mostly asian girls), major (japanese lit), interests (colonial japan, japanese food) and club activities (japan club, japanese dance). How things got generalized from Japan to a pan-Asian fetish is beyond me. In short, yes, the threat of being seen as having yellow fever is indeed a barrier to a serious non-asian man.
Along with that there’s the inevitable “What if I really DO have an asian fetish!?” that comes with years of being socially oppressed in the above manner.
Also, for a longest time I’ve felt that I could never date a Japanese girl, as the Japanese my targets of study — I’ve moved away from that into a broader focus in studying international student life/adjustment to the US, but actually I still puzzle over how people get over this.
Thanks for writing this Jenn. You are much more articulate in your reaction to the article than I can ever be. I’m also glad you responded because an opposition position really needs to come from another Asian American woman than from an Asian American man.
You hit on every objection I have to the article, from the casual dismissal of Asian people’s skin colour discrimination, to the rationalising of the Asian fetish, to the simple lazy intellectualism.
Seems that the writer of the article ,Vivienne Chen, is merely stroking her own ego. There was a case that I came across where an Asian American women married to non Asian men died and her death was ruled a suicide, even though it seems unlikely:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2029371/Jonah-Shacknais-lover-committed-suicide-guilt-death-6-year-old-step-son.html
Would anyone buy this if she wasn’t Asian and did stereotypes about Asian women play apart in the ruling?
After reading both the original article and this post, I only have this to say.
“In closing, let me make a humble suggestion: So, he likes you because you’re Asian? Then, he doesn’t love you. Really. Maybe you should try dating until you can find someone who likes you, and who doesn’t give a fuck what you look like.”
No. He likes you because you’re different. Because you stand out. And because he sees you as the most special thing that has ever happened to him.
Both articles, but especially this one in its holier-than-thou attitude, seem to forget this fact. Yes, there are the creepers out there, but hell, are you forgetting the fact that not every single “Asiaphile” out there is some anime-obsessed psycho? And the fact that a lot of guys who happen to be interested in Asian history, Asian culture, and Asian language are not doing it out of some perverted sexual fetish to get with Asian girls, but rather because they are generally interested in something so foreign to their native experience?
I have a fraternity brother who fits almost perfectly in one of the quotes Chen’s article brings up. He said this to me: “I’m dating a half Chinese girl, but I don’t to let her know I like some Anime and speak some Japanese. Then she might think I’m way too into Asian culture and creep her out.” It’s the fact that THESE WORRIES EXIST that Chen was writing these articles. I am not excusing the basement dwelling otaku that, yes, explicitly sexually objectify women. Regardless of what race that happens to (and yes, it happens to Caucasians, Hispanics, Blacks, etc. as well), that is not okay. But if hiding the fact that you know and are interested in Asian culture automatically qualifies you as a pervert, then we’ve reached a despicable (and ridiculous) level of hyper-politically correctness that this article seems to do nothing but promote.
And for the record, I’m a half-Asian who majored in Chinese, and I have a Chinese girlfriend whom I love very much. Am I dating her “only because she’s Asian”? No. I’m attracted to all girls of all colors and backgrounds. I’m dating her because she’s a great person, and because the world she comes from is INTERESTING, SPECIAL, and MAKES ME WANT TO KNOW ALL ABOUT HER.
So please, sit down, calm down, and then kindly reflect on the things you really should be getting worked up about.
Thanks to everyone who read this post. I was away this weekend without Internet access and was unable to dedicate time to commenting until now.
@Jake “I agree that we shouldn’t make this debate about lgbtq issues, but for your own growth, you should reconsider the notion that “hetero- vs. homo (vs. bisexuality) is a hard-wired thing that one is born with.” It’s not that clear-cut or generalizable.”
That is a fair point. In my mind, one’s sexual attraction based on gender is largely based on biology, v.s. a choice (which for me distinguishes it from the vast majority of fetishes), but you’re certainly right that the science is still conflicting on exactly how “hard-wired” or clear cut sexual orientation is. Thank you for pointing that out.
@Thomas: “Could you please clarify this inconsistency?”
Thank you for reading and thanks for the question. If you re-read the sentence, you will see that it is structured to read in such a way that I am lamenting the likelihood that Chen’s writing will make all of us Asian American women (particularly those of us in interracial relationships) appear to be “racist asshats” to the world at large. I am not calling Chen herself an asshat; I am saying I would rather not be viewed as racist based on how others interpret Chen’s article and argument.
I need to go now so more on this later.
Oh, you don’t want to make this an LGBT thing? You can impose your incredibly-high standards of being “attracted to men of all shapes and sizes, and all colours and creeds” and cite LGBT literature but the idea that maybe considering people as individuals and judging your attraction to them on a case-by-case basis should magically stop at gender because you’re convinced that your preference for men is “hard-wired”?
Instead of stomping out sexual orientation as something inconvenient to your point, maybe you should consider it as proof that your sexual preferences are just as arbitrary as everyone else’s. Some people are attracted to aesthetics and body types and hair colors and personalities.
The idea that east Asian languages/foods are some sort of shibboleth for a fetish doesn’t make sense either. Why should languages with billions of native speakers, a steady flow of TV/books/etc. for study material and a large market for translation/interpretation be ‘off-limits’ to people just because you dislike their dating patterns? I’ve studied multiple east Asian languages. And I eat in Chinatown fairly often because I can afford it and my lactose intolerance (shared with 90% of east Asia) means I can eat most cuisine down there without being constantly ill. And I’m bisexual. I must be some kind of monster.
(Apologies to the folks in the middle who have commented whom I haven’t gotten yet. I promise will, but this comment may be relevant to what you have to say.)
@Ben
So… what you’re saying is that we Asian women should shut up on the topic of men fetishizing Asian women because this is really “an LGBT thing”?
An Asian American woman dating an African-American man, and claiming to be uplifting the Asian American community is similar to a vegan being found at KFC with a fur coat.
You might as well join PETA, and make yourself an official hypocrite.
PS. When I was scanning this article, I thought to myself, “She’s American, for sure. From the East coast, most probably from a private or Ivy League school.” I could tell from the diction, angry voice, and just general writing style. It’s like herpes, it’s not 100% clear, but if you look hard enough you can’t miss warning signs.
Then I clicked on your “About Me” and I was hysterically flabbergasted and disappointed that you said you were Canadian. So, I read the rest of that section in disbelief, and saw that you spent 11 years in the US, and went to an east coast private school – and everything made sense again.
You’re so unCanadian it’s ridiculous. You belong in the US. Too bad, because UofT/McGill/UBC could have saved you.
@Adonis -
Just a word of warning that your comment is pretty much an ad hominem. If you have a problem with what I’ve written, feel free to disagree. But I fail to see how being Canadian, having lived in the States for 13 years, having been educated in the East Coast, or dating an African-American man is in any way relevant to my ability to promote and uplift the Asian American community.
Also, lovin’ the parallel between me an herpes. That’s truly creative. Keep on keepin’ on with your fantastic reppin’ of the Canadian politeness and niceties that you claim I lack.
“And the fact that a lot of guys who happen to be interested in Asian history, Asian culture, and Asian language are not doing it out of some perverted sexual fetish to get with Asian girls, but rather because they are generally interested in something so foreign to their native experience?” – N
I think this isn’t the point. It’s really not about interest in Asian cultures; people can keep up with Romances of the Three Kingdoms without dating exclusively Asian women to indulge racist fantasies. In practice, I think it’s surprisingly hard to reasonably identify Asiaphiles.
That being said, the problem here is the comfort level with not challenging racism. Chen’s piece advocates not challenging Asiaphile fetishism of Asian women so that Asian women can date White men, a predilection Chen assumes the majority of her own demographic share. No part of that is morally sensible.
And let’s be clear – we are discussing the moral implications of personal dating choices. It’s not supposed to be accepting of all choices. The people who read Chen’s piece and loved it because they like the idea of all fetishes being morally upstanding have to insert their own desire for public acceptance of their private activity into the writing. Chen didn’t write a rallying cry for the LGBTQ community, nor did Jenn. Both authors wrote about Asian American political issues, and the focus should remain there.
Just to everyone who has a problem with this post: No one really wants to be your kink. People want to be themselves, and you can’t justify reducing them to your fetish just because it helps you get off.
JennJenn,
It’s not ad hominem (oh lah laah didn’t know they taught you such fancy stuff in the States), it completely correlates to the fact that you’re a hypocrite.
For instance, I don’t go around kicking puppies, then write about “uplifting the puppy community.” You do (except with Asians, not puppies).
Also, going to an East Coast Private School in the US tells us a few things, which completely explains your perspective:
1. You probably didn’t get into UofT or McGill.
// This portion of this comment has been edited to removed references to Jenn’s parents.
Jenn: “Great! Can’t wait to date a desperate white or black dude and snag that US citizenship. Fuck Toronto, and all the socially normal people here. I’ll pay my way into college, become a blogger,
//This portion of this comment has been edited to remove references to Jenn’s parents.
Score!”
3. It explains why you probably have a major identity crisis.
Please stop pretending to care about the Asian-American community. Even PETA stayed quiet for awhile after Showtime exposed them.
The Huffington Post article made sense. Your life doesn’t.
Jenn,
I’m sorry.
I think I understand now. You wrote that entire post with the part dating about “uplifting the Asian community” and dating a black guy as irony.
That entire post was written as a parody!! I GET IT now, because there’s no way you could have been serious. You were being all fancy using literary irony, and all that fancy stuff you learned in the USA!
You’re blog posts and basically like Peter Chao videos, except you’re female and American: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZIK03pQHwc
Hahahaha you’re so funny!
Adonis, I know you’re not here in good faith to engage in debate. Jenn’s response to the HuffPo article, while I don’t completely agree with all the points made was a fair critique of the article.
It’s pretty evident that when someone resorts to attacking the person instead of the argument, that person actually doesn’t have the capacity to rebut the argument. If you think you know it all, why don’t you surprise us and actually engage the points Jenn made in her rebuttal instead of cheaply attacking her background (you need to look up the term “ad hominem” again).
Here, I’ll even be charitable and give you an example:
Good argument: Jenn, I disagree with you because I think ultimately pigeon hole Non-Asian men who date Asian because you write (blah blah blah).
Bad “ad hominem” argument: BAAAARRRGGGH! Your article make me angry but I can’t articulate reason why. YOU WENT TO DUMB DUMB SCHOOL AND ARE A STUPID POO POO PANTS HYPOCRITE. THUS YOUR ARTICLE SUX SUX SUX.
@Adonis
Please be aware that your ad hominem attacks against me are no longer going to be tolerated on this blog. While I’m happy to let the existing comments stand (your ad hominems directed at me are more useful in illustrating what your side of the debate needs to resort to by being posted than by staying hidden), I don’t think additional comments of this kind WILL contribute in a meaningful way to the debate. I have edited your comments to remove references to my parents, because while I can handle it, my parents don’t deserve to be smeared by random Internet haterade.
Additional comments from you will be held in moderation and/or deleted if they make it through my filters. They will remain hidden/trashed unless they are capable of steering clear of personal attacks against my background (i.e. you are welcome to continue participating in this discussion if you can avoid any additional violations of my comment policy). Also, I will not tolerate any attacks against my parents or anyone else who have nothing to do with this debate.
(Also, your desperate stereotyping of my background is hilarious in how wrong they are on the facts. So, just FYI, you don’t know what you’re talking about.)
@Ant
Thank you for your comment and appreciate your criticism. While I don’t agree that I am pigeon-holing non-Asians who date Asian women, that is a fair counterargument to my debate and would be happy to have a reasoned discussion with you on the merits of that argument.
@Adonis
I’m sorry — I tried editing your comment to eliminate any ad hominem attacks, and was left with… well… one sentence that was completely out of context. So, it has been trashed.
Please try again.
Just to refresh your memory: an ad hominem attack is any attack that would attempt to refute an argument by drawing attention to the character or background of a person in lieu of the arguments that they have presented. If you disagree with any content within this post, you are free to quote the part where you think my logic is flawed, and to refute it be presenting an on-topic argument about where you believe my argument is flawed, which I will happily respond to.
Ad hominem attacks are unacceptable because they are irrelevant to the debate at hand, and in your case, also factually incorrect. Mostly, I would rather not derail a potentially interesting discourse on racial fetishism by having to drag in where you have gotten assumptions about me and my background wrong.
I’m not pissed (like I said — what you’re doing is really kind of humorous to me), I’m just trying to moderate the discussion to keep it on topic.
Please don’t make me ban you. I really don’t want to.
PS – “derete” is not a word.
I’ve read both articles and I think there’s truth to both viewpoints. You can’t absolve people who lust after you only because of your race and not genuine love. But at the same time I don’t think having racial preferences means someone can’t truly love their partner. After all, I think everyone has racial preferences whether they admit it or not.
I am a 100% white American who grew up in Portland, OR, and being on the west coast, East Asian people and East Asian culture has been a part of my life since I was very young. My parents were much more likely to take my brother and I out for Chinese food than steak or fried chicken, (probably because we liked it better) and as soon as Japanese became a language option alongside french and spanish in my elementary school, I was enrolled. At this point, I can speak, read and write fluently in Mandarin (my Japanese was neglected), and have lived and worked and studied in China for over two years. My initial interest in China had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with sexuality; I was a high schooler eager to get as far away from home and parents as possible, and I found an opportunity to study abroad in Beijing. Since then, Chinese language, culture and friendships have become a very important part of my identity. I currently work in a hole-in-the-wall Chinese restaurant to help pay the bills while I’m studying for pre-med. I share a house with three roommates, one white, one Chinese and one Taiwanese.
In case you were wondering, yes, my girlfriend is Asian. She was born in Taiwan, but her family moved to Portland when she was eight. Is it because I have some sort of fetish/obsession? Absolutely not. It is because we have a lot in common. We both are the products of the cultural pluralism that increasingly defines the West Coast of the United States, and it makes me proud to be able to say that I can wholeheartedly embrace the inevitable mixing of western and eastern ethnicity and culture. I fell in love with my girlfriend because she, like me, speaks both English and Mandarin on a daily basis, and she, like me, has an appreciation for both hamburgers and tofu, and she, like me, could listen to both American electronica and Taiwanese pop. The point here isn’t in the specifics of taste, it is in the fact that both of our identities are defined by bridging the gap between East and West, and incorporating both cultures into our personalities.
I met her through school on a field trip and we started dating because we made each other laugh, not because I had some sort of abstract fetish and singled her out based on her ethnicity. I love her because we have similar interests and a similar worldview. She is ‘my girlfriend’, not ‘my Asian girlfriend’ or some other racist nonsense. I don’t really see her as being any different from myself, and the fact that she is ethnically different only comes up when other people remind me of it.
Which brings me to my last point. I hate when people accuse me of having ‘yellow fever’, whether they are white or Asian. It is the most ridiculous and hurtful racist nonsense I can imagine. Other people are taking the fact that I have openly embraced another culture and made it a part of my identity, and twisted it into some sort of sexual fetishism. It’s not like my girlfriend is my only Chinese friend that I tote around as some sort of exotic other to show my white friends; on the contrary, some of my best friends are Chinese guys, and I’ve dedicated a lot of my life to living in China and learning the language and culture all to the point that I feel more comfortable in a mixed setting than I do with all white people who make comments about ‘communism’ and ‘eating dogs’ every time I bring up China.
If our world is going to move forward in the 21st century and avoid cataclysmic conflict with the PRC, then more Americans and Chinese have to start looking past issues of race and nationality, and see each other for what we are; people with common hopes, desires and aspirations, whose differences are defined by individual preference and not fictitious racial stereotypes.
James — Thanks for the reply. To touch on some things:
“Chen’s piece advocates not challenging Asiaphile fetishism of Asian women so that Asian women can date White men… No part of that is morally sensible.”
100% correct. That isn’t morally sensible. But is that really what she’s saying? Hell, maybe that could be an interpretation of what she’s saying. And yeah, many people have interpreted it that way. But I don’t think someone like Vivienne Chen, who has written about minorities and the tribulations they face, would so knowingly and passively ignore blatant racism. Nor do I think she would encourage it. In my view, the absence of condemning sin is not equivalent to championing said sin. As morally skewed as that may be is up to interpretation. But I just think if she wanted to write a condemnation piece, she would have. That didn’t seem to be the focus.
P.S. Haha I don’t know many guys (if any) who’ve used their Asian fetishism as a better gateway to understand RTK. But hell if you know people who get off to Cao Cao, then maybe this response piece IS a good thing.
Also: I’d like a response from the blog owner regarding my views. As much as I appreciate your comment, James, I’d like to hear what the author of this piece has to say. I mean damn if you’re gonna engage with some troll on here, the least you could do is humor ME, right?
Finally, before you do that Jenn, please read Andrew’s comment above. My situation is very similar, minus being 100% White American; like I said, I’m half Asian. What would you say to people like us?
I should add that my multi-ethnic identity is part of the reason the backlash to the Chen article pissed me off so much. Am I supposed to assume my White dad is some fetishist who married my Asian mom to satisfy some perverted sexual desires? A big screw you to anyone who thinks I should. He learned her language because he was a diplomat stationed in her country. But he learned her culture because he fell in love with it when he fell in love with her. Is that “sexual fetishism”? If one thinks it is, then god save us, because globalization is going to produce a shitload of perverts.
I was born in Poland (Eastern Europe*), just before the fall of communism — my biological mother left us (me and my dad) when I was only three years old. Two years later, my dad married my Korean mum, and soon afterwards, we moved to Korea. Note: I get it, technically = step-mum, however, that word has a negative connotation to me. I have been calling her mum ever since I can remember — and she is my MUM in every aspect that truly matters.
I consider myself Korean, Korea is all I have ever known, and Korean is the one language I am fluent in. For the past three years, my family has been living in Michigan, but my dad’s work contract will run out next year, and so, we’ll move back home.
What I have come to observe during my short stay here is that at it’s core, America is race obsessed and arrogant.
Jenn, how can you as simply someone of Chinese descent represent other Asian minorities — what gives you that right? Asians are NOT a monolithic group.
All my girlfriends have been Korean (America included) — does that mean I suffer from a fetish? According to your article’s reasoning = yes. Categorizing people based on race should be frowned upon in any civilized society, and yet, this is exactly what you are guilty of yourself.
American media claims that Korea is xenophobic when in reality, the complete opposite is true — speaking from my unique perspective.
Anyways, congratulations on your doctorate and all the best of luck to you.
Lol, the reactionary responses that you are making speaks volumes. Why should Asian women have to put up with centuries of orientalist fetishism designed to dehumanize them. Just STFU and listen for once in your lives.
[...] a person for their race takes away their humanity. Jenn, who wrote “So, She Wants to Defend Asian Fetishism” in response to Chen’s article, explains, “whether you want to subjugate Asian women for [...]
“So… what you’re saying is that we Asian women should shut up on the topic of men fetishizing Asian women because this is really “an LGBT thing”?”
Actually, what I’m saying is that if you want to start dragging out the LGBT academia to challenge the way attraction is percieved, maybe you should try actually challenging how attraction is percieved.
You know why it’s okay for you to not date women? Because you don’t owe them or anyone else your company. If you think people need to change their dating habits because you think they’re too narrow, how can you enforce that without stripping them of the agency to choose whom they see? You don’t think it’s dehumanizing that you’d rather police how much bibimbap someone eats than allow them to define their social sphere organically?
It’s extremely childish of you to just dismiss my comment as ‘shutting Asian women up’ when apparently, us faggots get to make your points for you when it conveniences you and then fade into the background when it turns out that the points you’re making contradict each other. I agree with you that LGBT discourse is proof that categorical lenses are harmful and that judging attraction on an individual level is a more progressive way to view sexuality. Your “get out of gender free” card because EWW GIRLS ARE ICKY is what bothers me.
While it’s true that there are some problematic claims in the article you’re criticizing, and while I support and agree with feminism and racial equality, this whole post seems remarkably unsympathetic to the points the article made right.
That of which the “Asian fetish” discourages race mixing and a discouragement towards any interest. It’s particularly easy to get the “Asian fetish” label, for instance, if one so much as dates an Asian person as a non-Asian. And you’re conveniently ignoring and mocking everything about this truth. There’s also the fact that a person can notice subconscious preferences they might have that might be racial or gender oriented, and realize they might be a bit more physically attracted to certain facial features(i.e. what people in America use the term “race” to mean, facial features typically attributed to East Asians).
That is, not only is it not okay for people to mix races and white people date Asian people. And that the Asian fetishist label in a negative light is often used to degrade interracial relationship(white nationalists I’ve found are quite happy with this trend and love to hop on the “white men dating Asian women is disgusting fetishism” trend. Go check Stormfront about the subject if you don’t believe me. The “Asian fetishism” is like mana from heaven to them and their anti-race mixing agenda.). But I’ve going to have to side with the idea that a person can be even an “Asian fetishist”, or a person who recognizes their own subconscious preferences for things like round faces and not be any more racist than a homosexual is sexist.
When people are making the claim that it’s different because “homosexuality isn’t a choice”, well, I say there’s a lot of spectrum. Some people still think that most people are a little bit bisexual, and that there is a spectrum, and that sexual orientation may be less biological than people think. There’s a need for orientation to be heavily biological, because it blocks the bigotry towards LGBT by conservatives. Even if homosexuality were a choice, That’s not to say it’s a choice, it isn’t a choice for the most part, nor is most desire. That doesn’t mean Asian fetishism is much of a choice, either however. Speaking of which, there are neurosexist “studies” out there trying to claim that
As a Polysexual, sometimes Pansexual feeling, I have a hard time understanding what something that seems as meaningless to me as gender(this statement may come across as transphobic and possibly agender, but I don’t understand how people can feel attached to gender, to me, genderless is a meaningless and painful constraint. I’m not trying to degrade transgender people, I just find the existence of gender itself to be painful and perhaps am agender myself), but I don’t consider people who prefer one sex or gender over another to be sexist. I feel a bit of “shallow” gender preferences sometimes myself.
To specify, I don’t see what’s so amazingly different about the penis and vagina. It’s just one body part you aren’t usually going to see. From my perspective, gender roles are stupid. And said penis and vagina don’t have much to do with personality or so forth, and I see as much reason to have preference for one over another as many people see point in having preference for one race over another. None. You can have sex with either one, after all. I prefer personality over genitals.
The same applies to this “objectification” comment about race. People don’t have much choice in whether they have a round face, a flat nose, an epicanthic eyefold other other features we deem as “Asian” by the American classification of “race”, but neither do people have much choice in whether they have a penis or not. Isn’t also heterosexuality and homosexuality filled with “shallow” things like whether they like chest-hair, flat chests, large breasts, tallness, and so forth? Preferring a lack of chest hair isn’t much different than preferring a round face or flat nose.
And yet, if a white guy so much as dates an Asian woman, he’s constantly degraded with the label of Asian fetishist or “Asiaphile”. Year after year I’ve seen this on the internet and real life, as a young man who had some realization of his own attraction to Asian features by the age of 7 or so, this constant vitrol has led to the discovery of my own “bisexuality”, or rather, Polysexuality. This hatred you act like doesn’t exist and these thoughts in men you think don’t exist, do. All of these stereotypes, I became afraid of studying any non-European language at the age of 19, stopped watching anime for 2 years, and felt these incredible pangs of guilt and shame as I watched Asian television and listened to Asian music. Looking at the screen any realizing I had no choice but being physically attracted to these Jpop and Jrock and Kpop musicians and so forth. I started to become alienated by my heterosexual side, all of the homophobia that scared me as a child suddenly didn’t seem so scary anymore. I started looking at my penis with disdain and internalizing all of the hateful things said about me as a white person who thought that Asian women are beautiful. People calling me a racist, people calling me a pedophile and a future child molester if I found an Asian women beautiful, a creeper, a sexist, a misogynist, and so many other things. I hated myself for continuing to listen to Jpop and do something that was Asian despite my racist. The magic in my heart was dead, and I felt guilt and shame in everything I knew and loved. I started looking at my own penis and how it felt about things with disdain and started wanting to cut my own penis.
But lucky I was able to with a lot of angry, emo, soothing and cathartic music, and a healthy discovery of my “bisexual” reality. Indulging my attractions to men on a frequent basis, and avoiding thinking about Asian women romantically or sexually. All the homophobia felt like absolutely nothing and I was such a proud “bisexual” or rather, polysexual. If there’s anything I can thank the vitriol aimed at “Asian fetishism”, it’s how the disenfranchisement with my heterosexual side and heterosexual culture helped allow me to become a loud and proud polysexual. Truly, the pain of homophobia does not even close to compare. In fact, it sometimes even feels cathartic and relieving to be attacked for something other than being attracted to Asian women.
At this point in my life, I’ve pretty much left my desire to ever date an Asian woman in the past and have focused a lot more on hopefully dating a nice, androgynous white man someday. But seeing this whole controversy all over again for the first time in years has really reminded me of why I did such a thing, and re-instills a lack of comfort my heterosexual side. And made me feel a whole lot better about a lot of homophobia and biphobia I have received lately.
That vitriol of yours, I understand some of it is justified. But much of it, much of it, is certainly not. The kind of “objectification” Vivienne is talking about, is not the same kind you are thinking of. It’s the same kind of shallowness of a heterosexual who doesn’t want to date the same sex. Maybe not quite the same, but similar. “Asian fetishism” is all only what you think it is. Asian fetishism is a simple thing for some people. Sure, some Asian fetishists are bad people. Of course, you’ve already heard that from Vivienna. But what Asian fetishism can mean, is simply someone who finds flat noses, round faces, and “Asian eyes”, for instance, the presence of something like the epicanthic eyefold attractive. That’s what the Asian fetish is. And what, would it be better for me to say something like “I don’t care what race a woman is, as long as she’s pretty and has a nice personality. And looks like a woman and has breasts and the like”? Or, in my case, as a polysexual, “I don’t care what race a woman is, as long as she’s she has a nice personality and is kind of androgynous and boyish looking.” Which is what I do, because even though I might be called shallow and start reanalyzing whether my gender preferences for androgyny or just me being a shallow jerk, at least I won’t have to put up with the feeling of having an Asian fetish. And won’t be seen as having any Asian fetish. But that’s a lie, I’m not just a polysexual, I’m an Asian fetishist. But I’ll probably never date an Asian person, I’m too scared to. I’m scared of how I’ll be seen, I’m scared of how people will treat me, I’m scared an Asian woman would never love me for who I am. I wouldn’t be able to be myself, and eventually, they will find out I like anime, jRPGs, Jpop, Jrock, Kpop, manga, Jdramas, Kdramas, and so forth. And most importantly, they’d find out I really do have an Asian fetish and I really do find their eyes, nose, and the rest of their face, so very gorgeous. Hopefully, I can find myself a cute white guy who likes all of those things, and then my interests will be less suspicious and harmful.
Funny how it’s so okay to say “black is beautiful”, but saying “Asian is beautiful” is to “black is beautiful” as “black pride” is to “white pride”. I’d like to live in a world where people could proclaim that “Asian is beautiful” and it be a positive thing, but I don’t think that world will ever exist. And speaking of that fembot thing, you may not ever be an Asian fembot, but you know, as a white guy who feels trapped by my gender and even my race sometimes. I think that I will be. They say the Singularity is coming, I hope so. Not that I particularly feel like a female, but I think that I would enjoy and love turning from a white male, to an Asian female. Maybe with a hint of anime appearance thrown in. But mostly, an Asian woman. I’ll be a feminist, just like you. In many ways, I’m sort of feminist now. But if people see me as a woman instead of a man just in a woman’s body, and the world is still sadly patriarchal by that point, I’ll likely feel the sting of male privilege, and won’t enjoy everything about being a woman. Certainly, I won’t have a “grass is greener” mentality. Privilege exists, and men have it. People call me a feminist brainwashed mangina pussy as it is now. And I’m sure if I ever become a woman thanks to technology, not with slow, painful hormones, but with easy mind uploading, there will be a lot of men who will call me a feminazi, dyke, man-hater, gross, ect. Even if I’m sure I have my own gender and racial problems to grow as a human being, misogynists see the word “feminist” and go vitriolic. However, I won’t be exactly the same kind of feminist and woman as you. I will have a great deal of sympathy for men who are attracted to me. I’ll be happy they find the way I have chosen to look attractive and I will find that fact attractive about them. Instead of something they find to look past about me for my personality. I won’t want a person to find me attractive despite my Asian face. I will want them to think my Asian face is beautiful. Every bit as much as I will want them to look past the fact I was once a man. And the best of all, I will be able to enjoy my Asian fetish in myself, I will be able to be the woman of my dreams, the Asian would I would never be able to date, in myself. I will be able to love myself, as a beautiful, beautiful Asian woman. May the Singularity truly happen, this truly be technologically possible before I am dead and gone. And men will not have to worry that I find them unattractive for having an Asian fetish, for I will be worried the find me unattractive for being a man.
But for now, I am quite happy about my current preference for white men. I am far too scared to date an Asian woman. May there one day be a world where finding Asian women attractive and considering Asian women beautiful isn’t scary or unacceptable.
I’m willing to admit that my viewpoints are unscientific and totally based on personal experience, but I’ve known quite a few Caucasian men who only (or primarily) date Asian women, and every single one of them had obvious sexual and emotional issues. And the Asian women I’ve known who only date white men are not exactly healthy in their outlook either.
Moralizing aside, it is absolutely racist to fixate on a particular race – whether for good or evil. We all judge and discriminate to some extent, to think you are above that means you aren’t being totally honest.
My hope is that we as humans can evolve beyond placing such severe limits on who we love or who makes us horny – and that includes gender orientations and preferences. It’s who you are on the inside that counts, and that has nothing to do with race, culture or gender.
What I think is really sad is that Asian women who date and marry non-Asians are essentially saying that their fathers, uncles and brothers, who loved as family, are not good enough for them. I hope those fathers and brothers will return the favor by casting them off to live with the people’s they’ve chosen over their own people.
“Here’s the difference, and it’s a critical one. I never exclusively limited my dating choices based on race. In the very brief period between when I was both post-pubescent and single (and I do mean brief — we’re talking 3, maybe 4, years?), I was attracted to men of all shapes and sizes, and all colours and creeds. As far as I’m concerned, limiting oneself to dating only a certain physical type — racial or otherwise — is as superficial as it is racist, and is almost a guarantee to miss out on the potential love of your life.”
See, this is what really bothered me about your post, and presumably your whole position on the issue: you have a very narrow view of what is a fair an appropriate manner of being attracted to another person. It’s nice that you can pat yourself on the back for being so open to being attracted to so many diffferent types of people.
But you know what? If you had ended up dating around a bit more–and as you get on in life, it’s entirely possible that you will–you might notice that you gravitate towards certain types of people, for reasons that maybe you can’t quite articulate, or don’t care to. I think that most people do, and I don’t think that the core factor in these tendencies are racist.
So, when the next guy you date ends up inexplicably being black (hey, it could happen), are you going to think to yourself “Oh shit, I’m fucking racist!”, or are you going to not think twice about being with him because he is amazing, you’re crazy about him, and fuck whatever other people think? I guarantee you that regardless of how altruistic you consider your attraction for this second hypothetical boyfriend-who-happens-to-be-black, people will give you shit, just like they did the first time. But would it actually make you racist?
I’ve dated plenty of girls, and I’ve dated several asian girls, and every time I have, I’ve gotten this “asian fetish” bullshit thrown in my face, and I don’t really think it’s fair. I’m also not going to let it deter me from dating whomever I want, because I refuse to let other people’s narrow-minded politics–I’m looking at you here–police who I get to be attracted to.
If someone’s stated position is: “I ONLY date asians”, then yeah, that’s racist. Is this is really an issue in the circles you run in? In real life, I don’t really see a lot of guys going around declaring that. Because it’s easy to recognize that that’s fucking racist.
But what if I ONLY have been in serious relationships with people of asian background, but would totally date someone else if I were attracted to them? Am I still racist?
What do you think is an acceptable ratio of asian women to have dated, before I’m getting a little racist? 1 in 3? 3 in 5? Is a majority pushing it for you? What’s your dating diversity QUOTA?
For that matter, can you clearly articulate to me when a white man is not being racist for being attracted to an asian woman? Because your only answer in the post seems to be “as long as your open to other races too.” Right. So everyone can just look inside my mind and see that I also would love to date a freckled redhead. Because people have telepathy, and judge me not on my actions, but my inner values that I fimly hold, but haven’t actually ever had a chance to act upon.
Sorry, a few corrections in my last post; I’m sure I’m missing some too. You can just delete this post:
“the core factor in these tendencies are racist.”
should be
“the core factor in these tendencies is racist.”
and
“as long as your open to other races too”
should be
“as long as you’re open to other races too”
Cheers.
This topic has pretty much been beaten to death over the years. Why not just simplify it? Do you only date your race? Do you only date outside your race? Do you only date one particular type of race? The key word is “only.” There’s people who say they’re “open” to date other races yet they continue to date only one particular race. ie: A white guy that says he’s open to date any race yet if you check his track record he’s only dated Asians. Hell yeah he’s got Yellow Fever, he’s just too chicken to admit it. I used to rent one of my spare rooms at my house to a female Japanese international college student and she was a member of a “Japan Club.” When she had meetings here, she was the only female and all the other members were non-Japanese males. Hmm.. But as mentioned, the fetish goes both ways. Lots of females come here from Japan to supposedly study abroad but end up chasing after white guys constantly.
I’m Mexican and Japanese, born and raised in Southern CA where it’s quite diverse. I’ve dated other people of mixed races, one being half black, also Latinas, Asians and whites. My girlfriend is Thai-American also 1/4 Chinese. My girlfriend has dated both within her own race and outside of it. I prefer Asian women hands down but what distinguishes me from a Yellow Fever weirdo is I actually went out and dated multiple races rather than obsess over one particular culture and objectify one specific race of women. And yes I despise Yellow Fever weirdos as well as Asian women who claim to not be attracted to Asian men. These people are warped in the head and/or socially programmed beyond repair. Has anyone pointed out that demographics also has a lot to do with us socially? My cousin on my Japanese side only dates white guys and she admitted to me she is not attracted to Asian men. But she grew up around mostly white people and all her friends are white too. Is she racist for not being into Asian guys? Some would say yes some would say no. I will say I believe if you are not attracted to your own race then you have some sort of internal issue that’s out of sync. How can you be Asian and not be attracted to Asians? Makes no sense.
Anyhow… Jenn, you’re a great writer but one thing that made me raise an eyebrow was when you wrote:
“So, he likes you because you’re Asian? Then, he doesn’t love you. Really. Maybe you should try dating until you can find someone who likes you, and who doesn’t give a fuck what you look like.”
I agree 100% that if someone’s with you simply because of your race or nationality then they don’t love you. But rather than say “Maybe you should try dating until you can find someone who likes you, and who doesn’t give a fuck what you look like” – Maybe instead of “what” it should be “who.” Because I most certainly give a fuck what my g/f looks like as she does me.
Dear Jackson – Just FYI, your comment was not approved because apparently your enlightened retort to this post is “Who cares because I don’t think Jenn’s pretty. I only care about what women have to say if I personally want to screw them”.
It’s sad to me that you had the time to go check out the About page, but got so caught up in the picture that you failed to scroll down to the Comment policy of this site.
Feel free to try again.
Have a great day! <3 <3 <3
(Also, you just mad ‘cuz you can’t have none of this! *snap, snap*)
What’s ironic is that the white men who see no issue dating asian women are against, or at the very least, have no comment on white women and black men relationships… indeed behind the scenes (on forums, etc) – they think it’s plain wrong.
So you compare and contrast the comments they make here and similar articles… adoration of the culture, disliking their own race’s women (quite often these white men say such things when they are socially inept to actually hold onto such a white girl, and use their white racial status to get an asian woman, knowing that asian women see white as a major plus point – in some cases more so than money/personality/love etc….and thus see them as easy catches.
Another issue is how open asian women talk about this. You may think “well why shouldnt it be, 21st century blah blah”. Well consider this. Even white women, living in liberalised white countries etc… cannot say, to the white man’s face, that they exclusively date black or another race’s men. Indeed, it is rare to find such a woman. Same with black women, same with arab-indian women. Many of them may find men outside their races attractive, some may be married to them – but it’s rare for one to actually dislike their own race’s men. Judging by evolution, some will say rather screwed up – after all, she wouldn’t exist if an asian woman didn’t like an asian man several times in her family tree.
So why do asian women feel they can be so open about this racial issue? Well, most of this is because asian men are not putting up a fight. I don’t mean physical confrontation – but as I said above, no way would a white, and certainly not black or arab girl say to their men “I don’t date you”. They would either get socially shunned, abused, assaulted, even stoned….asian men – put out a feeble “oh but why don’t you like us”…. the result is that asian women don’t see an issue, indeed they think what they are doing is right, and happily whitewash their identity.
You’re into black men. Your claim to be racially omnivorous is dubious to begin with, but your drooling over the black male actor you posted clinches it. And it was dubious to begin with because most people have a strong looks preference. And yes Virginia, people from different racial groups look markedly different.
What’s funny about women who are into black men is that they think it makes them more racially enlightened somehow, when of course it doesn’t.
So it’s typical all around. The author of the first article was trying to justify her personal choices, and you’re trying to dress up yours. But people have their preferences, so live with it. You’re NOT superior to her.
You’re right. You read a single post consisting of roughly 1000 words written from me and you automatically know my entire romantic history of the last 20 year better than I do. How could I possibly hope to fool you?
I read the blog this was in reply to, and what struck home above all was how honest Miss Chen was. Whereas you reply with a seething dismissive blog calling her out for ‘defending fetishism’, when her blog did not imply what you determined it as in the slightest. I see that in your blog you focus on the ‘white male’ as being the fetishist and don’t seem to be able to look at the topic in an open minded manner (perhaps racism and bias on your part?) I notice that you say you are dating an African American male, what would your views be for you to discover him as a fetishist? Or does your inability to think outside the box not include other non-whites? You speak about ‘Eurocentric ideas of beauty’, yet fail to realise (intentionally?) that there is already racism deeply rooted in East Asian (particularly Chinese society) where preference for lighter skin through class (peasants who worked the fields had a darker hue) has been around much longer than colonialism. What irritates me most about your post (it’s not so much the racist focus on the white male) but the hypocrisy on your part, what’s to say that these people who admire East Asian culture/food/music/language aren’t doing so through choice (and this extends to dating). Indeed, what gives you the right to label someone an ‘Asiaphile’ or a fetishist? To be honest, there have been other posters here (such as Andrew) who made perfectly valid points about his own experiences yet you failed to reply to him (no doubt you’d pigeonhole him as a fetishist the same way you seem to have the white males who date Asian females). Depressing as it is, it’s views like yours which make me almost question myself and my dating a Chinese girl, but then on the other hand, it’s not of your business nor is it your right to judge. I truly believe views like yours promote ignorance and are regressive for the rest of the human population. Yours sincerely, a white guy dating an Asian girl.